Introduction
Nice to have you back with us at Digital 4 Productivity. Please don’t be distracted by the background noise. I’m on the road. This time it’s another exciting interview episode with Peter Bluhm, the host of the Performance Manager Podcast. It’s about meaningful digitalization in controlling and beyond. I hope you enjoy this exciting interview and get lots of good ideas.
Peter Bluhm
Welcome to the Performance Manager Podcast. My name is Peter Bluhm. I’m here at Controlling Inspiration in Berlin and I’m joined by Thorsten Jekel. Thorsten Jekel is a sparring partner for board members and managing directors and is regarded as a thought leader in digital working. And as a sought-after technology speaker, he shows in his presentations and keynotes how companies can make the most of the opportunities offered by digital transformation. I am delighted that you have joined us for the second time in the podcast. Welcome to the Performance Manager Podcast, Thorsten Jekel.
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you very much for the invitation. I am very pleased to be able to join you again.
Peter Bluhm
And I am delighted that you are here. Mr. Jekel. You say, and this is a signature saying of yours, so to speak: “First switch on the brain, then the technology. In times of digitalization with more and more technology, does that mean that we should also think more and more?
Thorsten Jekel
I think that’s very, very important and I think it’s unfortunately very often forgotten. So when I look at how technology often comes into companies today, it’s often the case that at some point it was like turning up on the golf course with a Blackberry. And then the board says: “We all need iPhones now too. And that means that no thought is given to how technology can improve processes. And when we look at performance management, which is about improving the company’s performance, the focus is always on: “What new technology do I have? And I prefer common sense five times over artificial intelligence. That’s because what I often experience, for example in the automotive sector, is that millions of euros are spent on augmented reality, virtual reality and things like that. And I’ve just changed vehicle manufacturers, for example, because they didn’t manage to get it right, so they said to me: “Wait a minute, your leasing contract is coming to an end. Don’t you need a new car somehow? And these are things like that. I don’t need to talk about artificial intelligence if I’m not able to keep track of a leasing contract that’s already there on paper.
Thorsten Jekel
And that’s why I always encourage people to say: “Technology is an incredibly valuable tool. Only, even in sales, I’d rather have a good salesperson who does it on paper than a super techie who can’t get anything right.
Peter Bluhm
If thinking is often forgotten, as you say, because of all the technology, then of course we don’t want to do that today. We are here at Controlling Inspiration in Berlin. This is an ICV symposium. So there are a lot of controllers here, a lot of financiers here. And let’s take the example of controllers, with whom you also have a lot to do. What should they be thinking about today?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, controllers should think about their job, which is of course what most of them always do: “How will I still be around tomorrow? And I think the answer is: “The controller will still be around tomorrow if he creates more value than he costs. When is that the case? That’s when the controller perhaps adapts his self-image from the past to what’s happening outside. I was at Tchibo for a while, for example, and we always had a Monday meeting as part of the coffee service and we had a colleague who everyone hated because he always told us once a week what wasn’t working and was the one who took out the rear-view mirror and said: “This isn’t working, we’ve done bad business. And I believe that technology can help with this and the controllers have to think: “How can I support decisions? And not after the fact, but at the moment they are made. In other words, how can I, for example, give a sales representative the tools he needs to make a decision: “Which customer am I going to visit now?
Thorsten Jekel
And they don’t get them afterwards with the motto: “You visited the wrong customers. And that used to be much more difficult in terms of technology than it is today. The only thing I experience is that this technology, which is already there today, is still not used by many people, because then it’s always more in the sense of putting your finger in the wound, which is of course also important, that you learn from the past and do things differently in the future. But today I already have a kind of digital co-pilot and I believe that it is important for controlling to understand its role as the one who uses these tools to really do this just in time, because I believe that controlling is increasingly not a separate function, but should be more actively integrated into the value creation process.
Peter Bluhm
We have given the cue to really use tools. I would like to come back to this later. I would like to follow up once again. Controllers traditionally work a lot with figures, with data and, of course, with the corresponding tools, often business intelligence tools. Would you say that controllers spend far too much time working with these tools rather than considering, for example, how controlling can contribute value to business models and the success of the company?
Thorsten Jekel
Would you confirm that? Yes, and I can also add to that, because I always see that when you look at this classic pyramid, on the one hand you have the creation of the figures, you have the topic of optimizing reporting and then at the top of the pyramid you have the topic of being a sparring partner for the management, for the operational areas. Here it is still the case that the basis at the bottom is still very, very broad, that there is a lot of focus on how the figures are provided, a lot of focus on the tools, but still far too little there. Which I can also understand, because there is of course a fear among many controllers who say: “Wait a minute, I’m making myself superfluous. You need me in this knowledge and I think that’s very important and I found the presentations today very exciting, for example from Professor Loosbichler, who showed that this pyramid turns upside down and that the future contribution is completely different. Just last week, I heard a very interesting interview from the management division of Lego, for example, who also said that more than 50% of managers who make decisions today on the basis of structured information will no longer be needed in the future, but will be replaced by artificial intelligence because they can make better decisions.
Thorsten Jekel
And you may have heard that there is an investment company in the US that has already appointed an AI board member because that’s where the better decisions are made. And it’s simply important to say that there are always studies that say control will become superfluous. I believe that the activities we do today as controllers will become superfluous. But ideally, we should use the freedom to be much more of a sparring partner, to provide much more decision-making support, and I think that’s the exciting job. And with all the figures, data and facts, without the human brain and mind, the machines also make a lot of nonsense and it’s all the more important to have a human over there to accompany the whole thing, look over it and ultimately use it as a tool.
Peter Bluhm
Now we’ve talked about the mind On the other hand, of course, nothing works today without technology. And you also mentioned the keyword “artificial intelligence”, which is often, not often yet, but occasionally already in the controlling department and in use, or at least on the horizon and hotly debated. How should controllers adapt to this ever-increasing technologization? Do you have any idea how this can happen? Absolutely.
Thorsten Jekel
The first important thing is to rethink our attitude, because the interesting thing is that if we see technology as something that makes our lives easier and that we enjoy, then we see the opportunities rather than the risks, especially in Germany. Let me give you a concrete example: you watch Netflix and get great movie suggestions based on your viewing behavior and don’t have to search. We think artificial intelligence is super ingenious, great. But when I hear that automated reporting is to be set up somewhere, I’m more afraid that I’ll become superfluous as a controller. What happens then? Then I tend to see the risks, which of course exist with both. With Netflix, of course, there are also risks in terms of data protection, saying that everyone has to know what movies I watch or don’t watch. If I watch any reports that are critical of America, for example, then at some point I may find that I can no longer enter the USA. So that means there are also things. These are things that we don’t see. On the other hand, we don’t see the opportunities. So firstly, the only step is attitude. The second step is to realize that AI is not just some crazy shit that will come in ten years, but that an incredible number of things already exist today.
Thorsten Jekel
A very concrete example: Coca-Cola, for example, has a CRM system with Salesforce, which many controllers today still see as “Yes, that’s the sales system. It is already in a position today where they have integrated AI into the CRM system and the sales representative receives very specific suggestions: Firstly, which customer should I contact right now because he has the highest probability of closing a deal? And which channel should I use to contact them? And it even suggests a formulation for an e-mail, for example. So these systems still exist. And then I go one step further down when I look, we don’t just have this topic of conference tourism, as I always call it, to say: “Oh boss, I heard a great conference about AI. That’s coming at some point. We don’t just have a situation where we already have CRM systems in place where they haven’t even understood the controls yet. Wait a minute, they already have such AI systems in place. But just last week, for example, I had a really down-to-earth look at the activities of the agency manager in the insurance agency, and he spent three hours every week alone transferring and copying Excel tables, which had at least once been filled out in Excel, from the field staff to a central table.
Thorsten Jekel
Three hours every week. I think everyone in the company today uses Microsoft Office. Many are already using Office 365. In two or three years, there will only be Office 365, and there is a component called Microsoft Forms. I can already say today that the sales representatives enter the figures in a browser-based or app-based overview instead of Excel and an Excel table is automatically generated at that moment, which automatically goes into the downstream reporting systems. And that’s something I experience, I’m in companies every week and I see in many companies that a lot of things are still done semi-manually or completely manually by copying and pasting. And I always say that the basis is already there today with the often paid and free tools such as Microsoft Forms, for example.
Peter Bluhm
You have just talked about the automation of reporting. You’ve mentioned Salesforce, you’ve mentioned Office products, you’ve highlighted Forms. If we now put ourselves in the shoes of a medium-sized company, what would you say are the tools that you consider indispensable in a medium-sized company today?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, when I talk about SMEs, I also differentiate between smaller and somewhat larger SMEs. I think something very, very pragmatic is Office 365, which I just mentioned, because in addition to the familiar Excel tools, which we still have a lot of in controlling, you now have tools that can be added there, where it is much easier to record data using forms, for example, including the connection of mobile apps, for example. So if not everyone is on site, it is much, much easier. And they have the option of using systems such as Power, for example, which are often much easier to handle in SMEs than large systems such as SAP. But I’m also going back to the analog track. Here, two kilometers away from here, there is an insurance agency. I was there recently and they have a paper pin board in the coffee kitchen, for example. On this paper wall, they have scribbled with paper, they have these columns from 0 to 100,000 euros, we have marked the target and then they have a string and an arrow that you can put up there.
Thorsten Jekel
This means that every time they are in the coffee kitchen and when they do something, they adjust it manually. Every time they are in the coffee kitchen, they immediately have their numbers above the coffee machine in view. And that’s a much more effective visualization than all the crazy digital shit they never look at. They get that once a month. So that’s why it’s much more important that when it comes to business intelligence, that’s the term they’re so successful with. And when it comes to business intelligence, I think it’s important to first have the business intelligence and say: “What are the drivers? And with them, for example, the new business is now written. In other words, they have a key figure that they have visualized so simply that even a simple sales employee – and I don’t mean simply in a judgmental way, I’ve been a sales employee myself since 1988, so I include myself in that – that a simple sales employee can see visually at a glance and say: “Where do I stand? Where are we? And that is much more important than the whole digital implementation, which is of course always important when you have organizations where employees may not always be in the same place.
Thorsten Jekel
Then, of course, it becomes difficult with the pinboard. Wonderful.
Peter Bluhm
Another statement you made is that most people use technology as if they were driving a Porsche 911 in the right-hand lane at 60 kilometers per hour. And perhaps we can relate that back to a company. Where, in which areas, in which topics do you think that a company – let’s stay with our medium-sized companies – should first of all use technology in a much more mature way, i.e. not something new and write some buzzwords on the flag, such as artificial intelligence, some algorithms or other topics, but simply use the technology first and not chug along with a high-performance device.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely. And that starts with very simple things. When I really look at it down to earth, I still see many organizations that use smartphones but don’t have all their contact information, calendar information and task information synchronized on all their devices, for example. And that’s no longer rocket science. So the keyword here is Exchange, for example, which is also included in Office 365. Incidentally, I don’t get any commission from Microsoft. Not that you think I’m here … From Apple then? Or do you not need to. You know me as someone who introduces iPads very strongly into organizations. And I’m not dogmatic about it, I’m pragmatic and say that an Exchange server used to cost an insane amount of money. Today, you can have it in your pocket for €5 per employee per month. So that’s the basis for me. The next thing is that when many companies use tablets, for example, these are fancy islands that perhaps also have the appointments and contacts on them, but very, very rarely have the files on them, for example, on the devices that the field staff need. So I find that brochures, calculations and things like that are not available on the tablets because IT then says: “Yes, that’s the devil’s work if you access our systems from outside.
Thorsten Jekel
And I think it’s important here: I often experience IT there because of a misunderstood need for security. And I say that deliberately: the need for security is not a bad thing. It is often misunderstood. I often find that crash barriers are built right in front of the road. In other words, users cannot access file systems. Funnily enough, however, these are often systems where I say that there are no crash barriers to the left and right. For example, employees can connect their iPads to a private iTunes or they start working with Dropbox and things like that, because nobody wants Dropbox. People just want to have access to their data. And when I look at the area of controlling again, I see that far too few, especially field service information organizations that need these things, have access to Excel spreadsheets that contain these kinds of reports. And that really isn’t rocket science. It is technically possible today. You can do it via secure VPN connections, you can do it via SMB and Webdraff interfaces. And with iOS 13, for example, you can use the existing file manager on the iPad to integrate network drives.
Thorsten Jekel
And then they have normal access to reports that may even have been created in Excel. And all of this is already possible today.
Peter Bluhm
So not only use software better, but also use hardware better. It’s no use always having the best device, the best smartphone, the best tablet. On the other hand, of course, it’s always the latest achievement for a lot of money. On the other hand, just reading emails on such a device and possibly having a calendar is simply not enough. You could probably have done that with a device, say, ten years ago. That was the basic functionality.
Thorsten Jekel
I often see managers who are in the office from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. or 6 or 7 p.m. and are never outside. They have the most expensive iPhone there is, where I say: “They don’t need a phone or smartphone at all. It’s purely a status symbol. And then the guys who do need it have the old slicers somewhere, because they don’t think of it in terms of function, but in terms of status. And what I also experience, especially when it comes to iPads, is quite extreme. Expensive devices that cost 1400, 1600 euros are used, but they are used in such a way that, if there are any e-mails on them at all, and when I then, you know, I work almost 100% iPad only and then they always look at me and say: “What? That works? And then I say: “Of course it works. That’s a typical example. Or if you look at it, you can’t hear it in the podcast, but you can see it on the video, I’m the Beklopfe with the two So I always have an analog and a digital watch. And when I look at it, the computing power that we have in an Apple Watch today is roughly a thousand times the computing power that the Americans had when they flew to the moon in 1969.
Thorsten Jekel
That means we could fly this thing to the moon a thousand times, there and back, probably to Mars. And what do we do? We tell the time.
Peter Bluhm
You have just mentioned that you are iPad-only or tablet-only, to put it in general terms. And is this a concept that you believe can be applied to all areas of a company or would you differentiate a little by saying that a tablet makes sense, but that coexistence with a real computer, perhaps especially in controlling, makes absolute sense?
Thorsten Jekel
So I’m a big fan of very differentiated considerations. That’s why the term “tablet” is too general for me, because, let me be very specific, I start with sales, for example. So, if I’m in sales and I’m with the customer. What do I need then? Then I need my documents, then instead of a white sheet of paper I need something where I can quickly draw something with a pen, I need to show something, present something, do something quick with a few sliders. I regularly test things like this in practice and I often find that IT people say: “Yes, then use a Windows tablet. And then I always ask: “Dear IT colleague, how many customer consultations did you carry out last week with your Windows tablet? The answer is usually close to zero, if not exactly zero. For example, we recently tested Windows convertibles for corporate customers and iPads as part of a Volksbank and Raiffeisenbank corporate customer advisory service. We did that for a few months. The guys threw the Windows tablets at our feet because they said you can’t work in sales with that garbage. But if I’m now in controlling on the other side, now I’m taking back office and it’s really about working on a rolling annual plan with the tools, I’m the same when someone says: “Yes, iPad only, then I say: “H Have you ever seen a controlling department from the inside?
Thorsten Jekel
So working there with an iPad is complete nonsense. In other words, when it comes down to it, the size of the screen alone is the limiting factor, for one thing. In other words, you need larger monitors. In my opinion, the Windows world is much better suited to this. And what I always recommend is the combination of ideally a Windows system, ideally a laptop, so that when I say in controlling that I’m on the road and have to work, I’m mobile and can access data quickly. I find that an iPad is usually much better suited to this, because I can slide a thick finger and, for example, in annual meetings when a key account manager is with a customer, he can see things very clearly on the iPad. At Transqrome, for example, which is the former REBE Food Service, we also have the SAP Business Data Warehouse with an app on the iPad, where the field staff can use slide switches with their finger to view the key figures during customer meetings. This works much better with tablets. I think the Windows field is better for creating such data.
Thorsten Jekel
And when I look at smartphones, I think the price-performance ratio of Android is even much better. So for me, where I say smartphones are the best price-performance ratio for me is Android, tablets are currently clearly the iPad, because there are simply many very good business applications exclusively for the iPad and not for Android systems. And in the back office, it’s usually really the Windows world and ideally it’s a combination. And the good thing is that the worlds are working together better and better.
Peter Bluhm
At the end of our podcast, I would like to talk about a sentence that I found on your website and which perhaps summarizes everything we have discussed here in a nutshell. It’s written very thickly in We have Digital Transformation and underneath it says “Explain, in smaller font size “Translating IT into Profit. Is that basically the spirit of it? Is that basically the essence of the whole digitization discussion is basically the essence of the whole conversation. Is that basically what it’s all about?
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely, because IT and digitalization and technology only make sense if they don’t burn more money than they bring in. And if you look, in most organizations, IT is the second largest cost factor after personnel. Is it the second largest value-adding factor? At least I don’t see that and my mission is to help companies to say, on the one hand, first switch on the brain and then the technology and then use the existing technology in such a way that it doesn’t burn money, but costs money and that is precisely the topic of Turn IT into Profit.
Peter Bluhm
Okay, and I think you will also be addressing this topic in your presentation here at Controlling Inspiration Berlin this afternoon, and I think everyone should listen very carefully to what you have to say and possibly take this message away with them at the end of your presentation. Thank you very much, Mr. Jeckel, for this, as always, this, as always, inspiring podcast.
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you very much, Mr. Bluhm.
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