Further links for you
Metaverse podcast by Thomas Riedel
Here is a summary of the most important questions for you
Was ist Future Literacy und weshalb ist diese so wichtig?- Future Literacy ist die Fähigkeit, die Zukunft bewusst zu gestalten.- Es ist wichtig, um zukünftige Herausforderungen zu meistern und Chancen zu nutzen.- Es hilft, langfristig zu planen und auf Veränderungen vorbereitet zu sein. Was ist das Metaverse?- Das Metaverse ist ein virtuelles, vernetztes Universum.- Es ermöglicht es, in einer virtuellen Welt zu leben, zu arbeiten und zu spielen.- Es wird als nächster Schritt des Internets gesehen. Wie ist der Begriff Metaverse entstanden?- Der Begriff wurde erstmals 1992 von Neal Stephenson in seinem Roman “Snow Crash” verwendet.- Er beschreibt darin eine virtuelle Welt, die ähnlich dem heutigen Metaverse ist.- Seitdem hat sich der Begriff weiterentwickelt und wird heute oft verwendet, um eine vernetzte, immersive virtuelle Welt zu beschreiben. Was ist der Hauptinhalt des Buches Snow Crash?- Das Buch erzählt die Geschichte eines Hackers namens Hiro Protagonist.- Er lebt in einer dystopischen Zukunft, in der das Metaverse eine wichtige Rolle spielt.- Die Geschichte befasst sich mit Themen wie Virtual Reality, Cyberpunk und Linguistik. Was ist der Hauptinhalt des Films Ready Player One?- Der Film spielt in einer dystopischen Zukunft, in der die Menschen in einer virtuellen Welt namens “Oasis” leben.- Der Protagonist Wade Watts nimmt an einem Wettbewerb teil, um die Kontrolle über die Oasis zu erlangen.- Der Film thematisiert die Auswirkungen von Technologie auf die Gesellschaft und die Bedeutung von Zusammenarbeit. Was ist die Idee von Interoperabilität und was hat das mit Straßen und Grundstücken zu tun?- Interoperabilität bezieht sich auf die Fähigkeit von Systemen, miteinander zu kommunizieren und zusammenzuarbeiten.- Ein Beispiel dafür wäre, dass Straßen und Grundstücke miteinander verbunden sind und es somit einfacher ist, von einem Ort zum anderen zu gelangen.- In Bezug auf das Metaverse ist Interoperabilität wichtig, damit Benutzer zwischen verschiedenen virtuellen Welten wechseln und miteinander interagieren können. Was ist Virtual Reality?- Virtual Reality ist eine Technologie, die es Benutzern ermöglicht, in eine virtuelle Welt einzutauchen.- Es verwendet Headsets und Controller, um die Erfahrung immersiv und interaktiv zu gestalten.- Virtual Reality wird in verschiedenen Bereichen eingesetzt, wie z.B. Bildung, Gesundheitswesen und Unterhaltung. Wie kann man Virtual Reality in Unternehmen nutzen?- Es kann für Schulungen und Simulationen eingesetzt werden.- Es kann zur Produktentwicklung und Präsentation verwendet werden.- Es kann auch für Marketing- und Werbezwecke genutzt werden. Was ist Augmented Reality?- Augmented Reality fügt digitale Informationen in die physische Welt ein.- Es kann durch Smartphones, Tablets oder AR-Brillen erlebt werden.- Augmented Reality wird in Bereichen wie Bildung, Einzelhandel und Tourismus eingesetzt. Wie kann man Augmented Reality im Supermarkt nutzen?- Produktinformationen wie Preise und Zutaten anzeigen- Rezeptideen und Zubereitungshinweise geben- virtuelle Werbung für Produkte schalten Wie kann man Augmented Reality in Unternehmen nutzen?- Schulungen und Training durch virtuelle Simulationen- Visualisierung von Produktdesigns und -modellen- Unterstützung von Reparatur- und Wartungsarbeiten durch AR-Unterstützung Wie kann Virtual Reality für ältere und behinderte Menschen nützlich sein?- Schmerzlinderung durch Ablenkung und Entspannung- Verbesserung der Beweglichkeit und Körperwahrnehmung durch spezielle Programme- Simulieren von Alltagssituationen, um Ängste und Unsicherheiten zu reduzieren Weshalb ist Audio bei Virtual Reality so wichtig und welche Möglichkeiten gibt es da?- Audio trägt zur Immersion in die virtuelle Welt bei- Richtungsabhängige Soundeffekte können die räumliche Wahrnehmung verbessern- Sprachsteuerung ermöglicht eine natürlichere Interaktion mit der VR-Umgebung Weshalb sind Konferenzen im Metaverse heute nicht immer sinnvoll?- Nicht alle Personen haben Zugang zu einer VR-Ausrüstung- Schwierigkeiten bei der Zusammenarbeit mit anderen, wenn sie in unterschiedlichen virtuellen Umgebungen sind- Es gibt noch keine einheitlichen Standards für die Benutzeroberfläche und Interaktionsmöglichkeiten Wie hat sich das Internet entwickelt?- Entstehung in den 1960er Jahren als militärisches Netzwerk (ARPANET)- Entwicklung des World Wide Web durch Tim Berners-Lee in den 1990er Jahren- Etablierung des Internets als globales Kommunikations- und Informationsmedium mit unzähligen Anwendungen und Diensten Wie hat sich das Metaverse entwickelt?- Das Metaverse ist ein Konzept für eine virtuelle Welt, die von verschiedenen Personen und Unternehmen entwickelt wird.- In den letzten Jahren hat das Konzept des Metaverse aufgrund von Fortschritten in der Virtual-Reality-Technologie an Popularität gewonnen.- Unternehmen wie Facebook, Google und Epic Games arbeiten an eigenen Metaverse-Projekten. Was kann man heute bereits im Metaverse nutzen?- Derzeit gibt es verschiedene virtuelle Welten und Spiele, die als Teil des Metaverse bezeichnet werden können, wie z.B. Second Life, VRChat oder Decentraland.- Nutzer können in diesen Welten mit anderen Personen interagieren, Avatare erstellen und an verschiedenen Aktivitäten teilnehmen.- Einige Unternehmen nutzen das Metaverse auch als Marketing-Plattform, um ihre Produkte oder Dienstleistungen zu bewerben. Welche Missverständnisse gibt es beim Thema Metaverse?- Ein häufiges Missverständnis ist, dass das Metaverse nur aus einer einzigen virtuellen Welt besteht, die von einer einzigen Firma oder Organisation kontrolliert wird.- Ein weiteres Missverständnis ist, dass das Metaverse nur für Spiele oder Unterhaltungszwecke genutzt werden kann.- Es gibt auch Bedenken hinsichtlich der Privatsphäre und Sicherheit im Metaverse, die noch nicht vollständig gelöst sind. Warum ist der Metaverse-Hype schädlich?- Ein übermäßiger Hype um das Metaverse kann dazu führen, dass die Erwartungen der Nutzer zu hoch sind und sie enttäuscht werden, wenn das Metaverse nicht alle Erwartungen erfüllt.- Es besteht auch die Gefahr, dass das Metaverse zu einem Ort wird, an dem nur bestimmte Gruppen von Menschen Zugang haben, was zu einer digitalen Kluft führen kann.- Der Hype kann auch dazu führen, dass Unternehmen versuchen, das Metaverse als bloße Marketingplattform zu nutzen, ohne echten Nutzen für die Nutzer zu bieten. Welche nächsten Schritte zum Thema Metaverse sollte man gehen?- Es ist wichtig, dass Unternehmen und Entwickler gemeinsam an der Entwicklung des Metaverse arbeiten, um sicherzustellen, dass es für eine breite Nutzergruppe zugänglich und nützlich ist.- Es muss auch an der Sicherheit und Privatsphäre im Metaverse gearbeitet werden, um die Nutzer zu schützen.- Schließlich ist es wichtig, dass das Metaverse nicht nur für kommerzielle Zwecke genutzt wird, sondern auch für Bildung, Kunst und andere Zwecke. Weshalb ist es wichtig Virtual Reality selbst auszuprobieren?- Durch das Ausprobieren von Virtual-Reality-Anwendungen können Nutzer ein besseres Verständnis dafür bekommen, wie das Metaverse funktioniert und welche Möglichkeiten es bietet.- Es kann auch helfen, die Vor- und Nachteile von Virtual Reality besser zu verstehen und zu beurteilen, ob das Metaverse für die eigenen Bedürfnisse geeignet ist.- Darüber hinaus kann es einfach Spaß machen, neue virtuelle Welten und Erfahrungen zu entdecken. Welche VR-Headsets sind empfehlenswert?**- Oculus Quest 2: Ein gutes All-in-One-Headset mit vielen Spielen und Anwendungen.- HTC Vive Pro 2: Ein hochwertiges PC-VR-Headset mit beeindruckender Grafik.- Valve Index: Ein weiteres PC-VR-Headset mit hoher Bildschirmaktualisierungsrate und Bewegungserfassung. Was ist Motion Sickness und wie kann man sie reduzieren?**- Motion Sickness ist eine Art von Übelkeit, die durch virtuelle Realität (VR) verursacht wird. Es entsteht, wenn das Gehirn widersprüchliche Signale von den Augen und dem Gleichgewichtssinn erhält.- Es gibt mehrere Möglichkeiten, um Motion Sickness in VR zu reduzieren: * Pausen während der Nutzung einlegen. * Verwendung von Anti-Übelkeits-Medikamenten. * Vermeidung von VR-Inhalten, die schnelle Bewegungen oder schnelle Richtungswechsel enthalten. Ist Meta das Metaverse und welche Vision hat Mark Zuckerberg?**- Ja, Meta ist das neue Unternehmen von Facebook, das das Metaverse aufbauen möchte.- Mark Zuckerbergs Vision für das Metaverse ist, eine immersive virtuelle Welt zu schaffen, in der Menschen in Echtzeit miteinander interagieren und verschiedene Aktivitäten durchführen können. – Er sieht es als eine Erweiterung der digitalen Welt und als zukünftigen Treffpunkt für die Menschheit. Wie sind die Pläne von Google im Metaverse?- Google plant, im Metaverse präsent zu sein.- Das Unternehmen will die Entwicklung von Technologien und Anwendungen für das Metaverse vorantreiben.- Es ist noch unklar, welche konkreten Pläne Google für das Metaverse hat. Wie sind die Pläne von Apple im Metaverse?- Apple hat bisher keine offiziellen Pläne für das Metaverse angekündigt.- Es gibt jedoch Spekulationen darüber, dass das Unternehmen an der Entwicklung von Technologien für das Metaverse arbeitet.- Apple könnte sich auch auf die Entwicklung von Hardware konzentrieren, die für das Metaverse geeignet ist. Was ist Web 3.0 und wie grenzt es sich zum Metaverse ab?- Web 3.0 ist eine Weiterentwicklung des World Wide Web, das auf der Blockchain-Technologie basiert.- Es zielt darauf ab, das Internet dezentraler und sicherer zu machen und den Nutzern mehr Kontrolle über ihre Daten zu geben.- Das Metaverse ist eine virtuelle Welt, die über das Internet zugänglich ist und in der die Nutzer interagieren können. Es kann auf der Web-3.0-Technologie aufbauen, muss es aber nicht. Weshalb hältst du nichts von Kryptowährungen und Blockchain-Technologie?- Hohe Volatilität und Unsicherheit der Kryptowährungen- Kryptowährungen werden oft für illegale Aktivitäten genutzt- Blockchain-Technologie ist noch nicht ausgereift und es gibt Sicherheitsprobleme Wie wird sich das Thema Metaverse, Virtual Reality und Augmented Reality weiterentwickeln?- Zunehmende Entwicklung und Verbreitung von Virtual Reality- und Augmented Reality-Technologien- Metaverse wird wahrscheinlich weiter an Bedeutung gewinnen und neue Möglichkeiten für soziale Interaktion und virtuelle Welten schaffen- Mögliche Auswirkungen auf Arbeitsplätze und Wirtschaft, insbesondere in den Bereichen Gaming, Unterhaltung und Bildung
Here is the complete potion for you
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, welcome to another episode of Digital 4 Productivity, the podcast where we always think about how meaningful digitalization can take place. And I have another great guest today. Because as you know, I always bring in professionals for certain topics who are much more in-depth. And one topic. And I think we have something in common, dear Thomas, we’ll talk about that later. I’m really annoyed by this current discussion about the metaverse. Because on the one hand there are the many self-proclaimed experts who say that we are the metaverse, we hold congresses in the metaverse and then it says metaverse everywhere. And my position is that it doesn’t even exist yet. And how do I know that it doesn’t exist? Because one topic where I naturally keep myself very well informed, which I can highly recommend, is the Metaverse podcast. That’s how I got to know Thomas Riedel. I first got to know Thomas Riedel by ear via the podcast, because I’ve been listening to his podcast since the first episode. And we even got to know each other briefly in person at a meet-up in Berlin.
He does them regularly too. So great. And today it’s all about the metaverse, hype or some kind of nonsense. I’m experiencing both at the moment. So before I tell you too much about you, by the way, you can do that much better. Just tell me, dear Thomas, who you are, what you do, how you came to this topic of meters and why I think you’re the expert in Germany.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, thank you very much Thorsten for the warm welcome. And yes, who am I? What am I doing and where am I going? Yes, Thomas Riedel. I’m a tech journalist from Cologne and have been for almost 15 years. And yes, I, my, my start was the social media era, so to speak. That’s when I actually started to deal with the topic of tech in a professional environment. Before that, I was already a very passionate podcaster, so to speak. I’ve been listening to podcasts and trying to produce them ever since podcasts have been around. And so, over time, I worked my way through the various topics. Of course, there was a start-up hype at first, which is now actually normal. Start-ups are normal, but there was a time when having a start-up was the cool thing to do. That’s when I got involved with start-ups and then I spent the last five years working on digital product development. In other words, how do you actually build a digital product, what kind of teams do you need, what tools, what tactics and methods?
I did that at Digitale Leute, where there is now also an annual conference, because digitale Leute gathers, which is an excellent conference for learning how to actually build digital products these days. Sounds kind of trivial, but it’s not, if you look at what we surround ourselves with every day. It requires a lot of power and know-how and that was the last topic, so to speak. And after being there for five years, I asked myself the question, what am I actually doing now? A few new topics came up and then I became self-employed again and offered on LinkedIn that I could make podcasts for other people and was flooded with requests. So I did that too. But then another topic came up, namely Mark Zuckerberg organized the in-house developer conference Connect in 2021. At which he announced the metaverse, or rather he didn’t actually announce the metaverse as such, but that he would be working on it with his company and that we could perhaps expect it in five to ten years.
And that he will invest several billion over the years, in other words a lot of money. And that was a point for me where I thought okay, now here’s VR and it was always such a very strong nerd topic for me, very nerdy, often tried, often failed, with motion… VR ride. And from that moment on, I realized, okay, this topic isn’t going anywhere for a while, because substantial new money is being invested in it. And yes, I read a bit about it on the internet. And I immediately realized that it was absolutely necessary for someone to sort out …..
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. So I really do say thank you, thank you. You will also notice in the course of the interview. I also work in German studies as an association, as a lecturer. And there are many colleagues who have really deep substance and say really great things. Unfortunately, there are also one or two people in the industry who are out there with googled half-knowledge. And I think we have a similar perception of that, don’t we?
Thomas Riedel
Absolutely. And yes, I am a journalist by profession. That means I naturally try to explain to my listeners, my readers, what is actually happening out there. And this was of course the perfect subject area to do that and to practise it a bit. It has to be said that I started another podcast during the coronavirus pandemic that you don’t necessarily have to listen to. It’s called Future Future. It was a bit, yes, it was a bit about that, at the beginning of the Corona period we asked ourselves, what does the future actually look like now? All the plans had just been destroyed, more or less. And where is the journey going? And that’s when I got to grips with the subject of the future and discovered this topic of Future Literacy. And I actually found that very exciting, because in the tech sector in particular, the absence of future literacy, to put it bluntly, the absence of future competence to be able to assess what these things actually mean?
But that’s where I think it’s incredibly important. And the topic of metaverse was a perfect, perfect topic for me to practise on. Namely, how can I actually try to pass on this future literacy to my listeners? And of course also in the knowledge that I myself am also learning what it’s all about. How to actually do it. And that was the Metaverse podcast project. And it worked amazingly well.
Thorsten Jekel
And rightly so, because I say it’s well produced. You can tell that you’ve already produced one or two podcasts. You can hear that when someone does it with decent equipment. So sorry, I’m on the road today, that’s why I have my minimal equipment. I hope it’s still bearable. But you can hear in your podcast that it’s well produced and you can watch a bad picture for hours, but you can’t listen to bad sound for long. Secondly, the content is strong and thirdly, you always have great interview guests. I also think it’s a great selection of people from different areas. And even if they come from a company, it’s never an advertising event, but you manage to work that out well in your journalistic competence and I think that also applies to the selection of guests. I don’t think you put in the spackos who then somehow hold up the product slides. And what I find really exciting is that we have something in common, including the topic of literacy. I help people to simply use technology.
Thorsten Jekel
And I always have two principles for myself. The first is to switch on the brain first, then the technology. So you don’t have to do every piece of shit just because it goes digital and does it. Sometimes I prefer common sense to AI, or we should at least start with that, and simply use the second technology. And maybe again I like this term Future Literacy. Why do you think it’s so important? The target group for my podcast is primarily managers, managing directors, board members and sales managers, who as managers don’t always come from IT. Why is this topic of future literacy so important for them?
Thomas Riedel
Because digitization and everything that has been digitized in the meantime has had such an incredibly big impact on us. So at the very beginning, it was just an information portal, a bit like a book. Yes, you could open it up and read, ah, Peter Müller has a website and he also likes Star Trek. So that was the Internet at the beginning and you could smile at it. Then people started writing emails regularly and it became a serious communication platform. But it also became a marketplace. And this marketplace is now huge. It’s still not as big as the normal marketplaces, but it’s one of the biggest marketplaces we have and, of course, it’s also managing to do this through technology, digitizing things, processes, etc., streamlining processes, saving costs, being more efficient and sustainable, which gives companies a significant competitive advantage. In other words, the entire tech sector has now taken on such an incredible importance in the entire value chain, in society as a whole, that it is actually as necessary for survival as looking left and right at a traffic light.
Yes, we teach our children that, but we don’t teach them how to actually deal with technology and how to evaluate new technologies. And these technologies always work very strongly with narratives that focus on the future. We are regularly inundated with them. And that’s why it’s very, very important to have an organ, so to speak, with future literacy, to have a sense that reacts immediately when something happens. Yes, when you hear a siren on the street, you know what you have to do. You’re even aware of it subconsciously and you immediately look All right? Can I pull over where? Where is the ambulance now? Can I cross at the crosswalk? No, we’ve gotten used to that. And with future literacy, which is the little sister or big brother of media literacy, it should actually be the same. In other words, you read something somewhere and, completely subconsciously, I have to immediately switch something on and say, watch out, someone is throwing around a future narrative, a story, and they want something from me. Yes. And what is that actually? And how should I react to it now? And what does that mean for me? That all has to happen. Otherwise you allow yourself to be manipulated with FOMO or you simply believe things and then you invest millions in something and then realize after two years that nobody was actually interested. Let me give you a good example. Peter, you, we need an app now too. Yes, or we also need a website now, don’t we?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, we know it from somewhere. It was nice, too, and a lot of agencies have had a good time. In the end. I’d say oh, probably 90% of the apps and websites created back then were actually for the garbage can, right? I mean, it wasn’t a bad thing to get into, okay, but with a bit more thought, you might have realized that it would have been unnecessary. And so there are a few things today where you have to say, hm, whether it really has to be. I don’t know.
Thorsten Jekel
I mean, the topic is also, when you say, you said earlier, how you came up with the idea of participating in the podcast, that Mark Zuckerberg drove the, I’ll say digital pig through the village in a very public way in his keynote, right up to the renaming of the company to Meta, to say we are now doing this with subscriptions. In my perception, this was the first time that the general public came across this topic of Metaverse from outside our bubble, which is in the field of digitization. Is that just my perception or is it also your perception? You are broader, also in the topic and also journalistically in the background.
Thomas Riedel
Hm. That was actually the case. So a lot of people heard the term for the very first time. Then there’s a small group of people interested in science fiction who might have read Snow Crash, which was the case for me. The first eBook I ever read was on my HTC Hero in the Google Play Books app. That was my first eBook and it has.
Thorsten Jekel
He’s even called the protagonist, which is ??? Depending on how you pronounce it, the name even fits from the side.
Thomas Riedel
So that was very, very cool and that’s when I actually read the book and you could have come into contact with it. And if you’ve been in Silicon Valley really deeply and for a while, the first term, the metaverse, has been around for a while. But it wasn’t quite a household word. So it wasn’t always there like social media or something like that, but people knew what it was, there was a time, for example Second Life, that there was a wave where the word wasn’t completely unknown and that’s why it was already there. But in fact, it was never there in the general population and that’s why everyone googled it first.
Thorsten Jekel
And what I always find when I google the topic is that sometimes, there is this quote attributed to Albert Einstein that says you should make things as simple as possible. And now comes the important addition, but not simpler, and some people make it too simple. I then read things like saying okay, Web 3.0 is the metaverse. That’s the first development, the second is the third. In my opinion, that’s an inadmissible reduction. That’s why I’d like to take the opportunity for you to perhaps conduct a lot of interviews and not just discuss one definition of the metaverse in your interviews, but also different ones. In your opinion, what is a tangible definition of the term metaverse? What is it?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, I have to expand a bit, because unfortunately not.
Thorsten Jekel
I know, that’s why I invited you especially, because I think I would also shorten it unacceptably. And that’s why I’m very happy that you’re here.
Thomas Riedel
So what you can say up front, which helps a lot, is you wouldn’t be asking this question if we already had it and it was completely clear what it is. Yes, so suppose we were to go into the Central Sandbox Land now, where I lovingly merge these two platforms into one, the Central Sandbox Land, and I were to go in there, then I wouldn’t realize, oh, this is the Metaverse, absolutely clear, but you would go in there and ask yourself, what is this actually about? Where am I here? It’s kind of strange. And that’s how I felt with a lot of things that I researched after the Connect and was told by people, yes, by the way, this is a metaverse that you have to visit. I did that and went in there and thought, okay, this is supposed to be the metaverse. And it wasn’t that I thought, a Metaverse, of course, totally cool. It was different with the Internet, by the way.
Thomas Riedel
When I was on the Internet for the first time, I thought, oh shit, what is this? How cool is that? I immediately understood what the Metaverse was, simply because it was self-explanatory. That’s not the case with the metaverse, and I think that’s because we don’t have anything like a metaverse at the moment. Yes, so it doesn’t help, for example, to read on the Internet what the metaverse is, but it obstructs the view of it a bit, because there are a lot of people who say yes, look here, you have something to buy, here I have a product, I’ll now label it with metaverse, buy it, then you’re also in the metaverse.
Thorsten Jekel
It’s like AI. AI is plastered everywhere and if you look behind it, it’s often marketing speak.
Thomas Riedel
Then sometimes it’s just an automatic statistic, as you would say in technical jargon. Exactly. And that means that a lot of the things you see at the moment block your view. You don’t really realize where it’s going. And that means you actually have to take another step back and ask yourself what are the necessary conditions for the metaverse? So where does it come from? How can we somehow find a basis, so to speak, on which we can build in order to then understand where the metaverse says what could actually be? That means as a journalist, but of course also a bit as a scientifically working person. So I just like it when I have facts and I don’t have to believe something that someone says, no matter how many billions they have, no matter how much reputation they have in some scene, then I might listen a second time. But believing is always the worst option for a journalist, I actually want to know and everyone who makes decisions should actually have the same maxims. When I make a decision for my company, I don’t want to believe it, I want to know something. And building something on faith alone is simply the worst of all options. Okay, so I sat down and looked to see who could actually tell me something about the metaverse. And many, many people have said things about the metaverse in the past. But even then it’s never completely clear where the term comes from. The press wrote back in 2001 that Second Life was a metaverse, but they couldn’t justify it either. Even back then, it was part of a hype, but that’s not enough of a justification for me. If you go back even further, then there is really only one source left, namely the book in which the term was invented. Not quite right, not freshly completely invented, but used for the first time in this way, namely in the book Snow Crash published in 1992 in the USA, 1993 in Germany by Neil Stevenson, a US American science fiction author who has written many books in the meantime. One that he may be familiar with is Kryptonomicon, which is a little better known and I have also read it. I recommend it. In fact, because you also learn a bit of history there.
Thomas Riedel
I read it too, thanks for the tip.
Thomas Riedel
Namely, like the whole crypto history, yes, so the whole cryptography history and not crypto history. So encryption and stuff.
Thorsten Jekel
This is a novel.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, it is. It’s a novel, but it’s based on historical facts. And then it’s a bit about Enigma history and sometimes also very mathematically concrete, how things are developed.
Thorsten Jekel
So I’m sure it will be for some of you too. Snow crash, well, I have to say, it took me three attempts to read this book. To be honest. But I’m not really a fantasy reader. Well, that’s my daughter, she likes to read fantasy. I don’t have that kind of access to this genre. So I don’t think I know how you felt when you read the book. Was it an easy read for you?
Thomas Riedel
I devoured it the first time. But that was also due to the symbiosis. I was thrilled because it was readable on my cell phone. Plus a great topic and so convenient. To be honest, I didn’t know anything about the book ten years later. In other words, it seems to have been flushed down the drain somehow.
Thorsten Jekel
So I read it after the podcast and, as I said, it took me three attempts because this part, when Thomas says you have to read it, you have to read it. And of course I read it properly. But it was, let me say, a good approach to the topic. Yes.
Thomas Riedel
Absolutely, yes. So I reread it last year and I’m reading it again now in preparation for a very exciting interview. You can look forward to that. I’m discussing this book with a science fiction author who is currently alive. It’s going to be a great pleasure. It will be a lot of fun to discuss the book with him. And this episode will come out, I think at the end of March, beginning of April, where we’ll talk about Snow Crash in great detail. So I’m really looking forward to it. That’s why I’m mentioning it here. The book itself is actually easy to read. The language is relatively catchy and fluent. Very, very also almost stream-of-thought like, formulated in parts. When I read it, the book was very well received at the time because it hit such a niche. You have to imagine that in 1992, the Internet didn’t yet have pictures and.
Thorsten Jekel
I still know it.
Thomas Riedel
The first, the first browser that could display images in this way came out in a beta version in the winter of 92. And that means that the internet was still this classic cyberspace back then and the media and the general public imagined it as a river of code. And you can still see this to some extent in homages in later films, such as The Matrix, where this Code Rain is a tribute to this cyberspace. And there you can see, even today, I’d say, whenever it’s about hacking, this code is used again, so to speak, because it’s simply very catchy. And the internet back then was practically very abstract. And what Snow crash does is give this Internet, this digital space, a physicality, a spatiality that you couldn’t really imagine before. So there was something like the lawnmower man. That was very impressive because people suddenly had bodies. But even they were basically code. And with Metaverse, Metaverse, it was like suddenly there was a whole city, suddenly there was a whole world.
Thomas Riedel
And that was fascinating, of course. In other words, it really hit home and influenced a lot of people. For example, one man said, I’m going to build that now, and then developed Doom. In other words, John Carmack was very inspired by it and built Metavers. And that didn’t work out. But instead he became successful with Doom. Another person, he founded Linden Labs on Linden Street in San Francisco and said, “I’m going to build that now.” He built a machine out of steel pipes, clamped monitors between them and put it on his shoulder. In other words, his head was surrounded by monitors so that he could have an immersive all-round view and then build the Metaverse. Problem – the device was actually a bit bulky, so it didn’t work. But the software for it was used to ultimately turn it into Second Life. In other words, there are many, many more stories like this, where people have felt inspired to build something like a 3D world based on the book alone.
All these people have always said that they actually failed with their plan to recreate the Metaverse, but they didn’t make a big deal of it. Because the press celebrated it. And that’s why I say Second Life is still around today and was successful back then. So they didn’t put up such a big fight? Okay, but now back to the book. The book has of course had a big impact, but what does it actually say? It’s a dystopian, ironic book set in the not-too-distant future. That means you can’t really take it too seriously. And it’s historical and ironic. That means it’s by no means a construction manual. So opening it up, reading it and building the Metaverse is actually not, because this thing is a warning.
Thorsten Jekel
I don’t want it to be like that.
Thomas Riedel
That’s why you can’t.
Thorsten Jekel
Implement one to one. Not a utopia but a dystopia.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, which is why you can rightly ask yourself how Mark Zuckerberg came up with the idea of using a dystopia as a template for another internet or a further development of the internet, so to speak. But okay, that’s the way it is and there are also a few positive aspects. Actually, the metaverse in Snow Crash is a utopia, so to speak, a place somewhere else. Yes, utopia, the place, the place that is far away, as an escape from reality, so to speak. Because it is indeed the case, the book is set in North America, that the state has virtually no function any more. Large corporations are taking over the function of statehood. There are territories where it is wise to have a sword or a machine gun with you to be able to defend yourself. There are anarchistic conditions that are anything but humane. And this world is very hard, it’s harsh. And then there’s this metaverse, where the richest 1 million people can buy their way in and then have a plot of land.
And the rest are guests or slaves or employees or something and can just come in. And exactly. And this metaverse looks like this The Earth was basically recreated on a scale of one to three, I think, roughly. And there’s only one road around this earth, like a snake biting its own tail. And the properties are on the right and left of this road and only on this road. That means you can buy these plots and then you can build things on them. And if you want to move from one plot to another, to another plot, you have to use this road. That’s basically the entire set of rules, the Metaverse, and you can’t use it any other way. So there’s this road and these plots and avatars and so on. So, and of course the whole thing is kind of small today, so why should there only be one street and houses to the right and left? Of course, that’s not how we imagine it.
Especially not after we’ve seen the movie Ready Player One or, even better, read the book. Because it’s better than the movie, although the movie is also good, but even better.
Thorsten Jekel
It was a book that made it easier for me to access it. So I have to say. Yes.
Thomas Riedel
Very colorful, very modern, lots of cultural allusions. It’s really fun. The book is cool. Ready Player 2 is supposed to be Nick, you don’t really need to read it, but it’s definitely worth a read. And basically it’s exactly the same as Snow Crash, only more colorful and multidimensional. So I’d say it’s not just practically this one world, but many worlds.
Thorsten Jekel
Because what I find brilliant about this street, I think, is that you can understand the concept of interpreality extremely well. That’s what you explain very well in your podcast. So that’s why I think it’s a good simplification, because I think if you approached the topic differently, it would be too complex, wouldn’t it?
Thomas Riedel
This helps you to understand that this is not a construction manual, but of course it is a metaphor. It’s a book, a poetic book. It’s ironic, it’s dystopian. Please don’t take that literally. So even more precise, even more dedicated. You can’t really say, don’t take it literally, try to understand it as a metaphor. And that’s exactly what I tried to do. In other words, what could the metaverse that we see in Snow Crash actually look like today? So what are the different mechanisms if we transfer this to today? And my approach would be to see the individual properties in this metaverse as individual experiences, i.e. what we already have today, for example a ??? game. That would be an experience, for example. And the road is indeed, as you have already mentioned, the connection between the individual experiences and you always have to take this connection, so you can’t just skip over it, so to speak, but have to walk over it.
Thomas Riedel
And if you define it very close to the book now, you could say the metaverse is an infrastructure of VR experiences that are connected in such a way that you have to walk across the street from one experience to another, are very strict. But I think it’s very good for understanding what the principle might be. It’s a network of experiences and not the individual experience. It’s also in analogy to the internet same language usage. There is not the website, there is the internet. And so there are no metaverses. Otherwise, a page can also be the metaverse or something, but you can become part of an experience of a metaverse network if you connect to it in a metaverse way. And now you’re asking me, of course, how is that, this, how is that supposed to work, this way of connecting? And in fact I have no idea. Yes, I don’t know what it’s supposed to look like. But the cool thing is that they’re working on it now.
Thomas Riedel
So there had already been a bit of work on it beforehand. But it was actually the starting signal and Mark Zuckerberg simply has to be credited for that. Through his start with the renaming to Meta and the commitment to go fully into the Metaverse and help build it up, a whole range of different activities have now started to build on it. Nvidia, for example, is working very hard to establish this interoperability, as is the Open Metaverse Foundation or the Metaverse Standards Forum, where a large number of members have become members in a very short space of time. There are now over 1,800 member companies and everyone you can think of is involved.
Thorsten Jekel
Is ??? part of it?
Thorsten Jekel
Really all of them. Except Apple.
Thorsten Jekel
But ??? is not included.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, yes, he was one of the first founding members and exactly, and they are now trying to work on these interoperable interfaces, so to speak. And I would like to take this a little bit further, because I think it explains quite well where we are right now. When developing the Metaverse, we are at the point where we should have predicted in 1990, so to speak, how to find and add friends in a social network in the year 2000. That was not predictable. It was not predictable. We knew there would be something like a network. But if you look at the landscape of networks at the time, for example, you have to say that there were lots of different DARPA and FDP and lots of different local, small stories. It was impossible to predict that this World Wide Web would become the thing. And that’s where we are right now with Metaverse. We know that a new network like this could emerge. We already have various technologies at our disposal. AR, VR and of course all the server technologies, games, which also tell us a lot about in-game navigation in game communication etc. and also help us to understand things. But it’s actually impossible to say what something like this might look like in the future. And I’d like to briefly explain how a technology could be a use case, so to speak, or perhaps we’ll leave that until later. Maybe you have something to follow up on at this point, because there have been a lot of leaps at once.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, I think that’s great. Because I think this topic deserves to be looked at more broadly and in more depth. I just think, and I’m also very much involved in online events, and what I find very unfortunate is when, for example, an event where you’re looking at it is described on the screen as a conference in the metaverse, all day long, where I say, firstly, one element for me is not looking at it, but being in it, i.e. the immersion. Secondly, the issue of motion sickness has already been addressed, so I can last two and a half to three hours with VR glasses, after that I’m done. So I think it’s a mistake to only have a conference all day in the Metaverse, where people are looking at it or the whole day with the glasses. And the stupid thing that I think is a shame is that it has the same effect as online, where people say, oh, online sucks, I want to be present again. And I also see that as a danger that many people then have a pseudo-metaverse experience and then tick it off because they say shit, I know it, I don’t want it. And I think that takes away a lot of the potential opportunities. So I think that’s a big danger in this area. For me, it’s not just about marketing my own formats. But I think it’s also important in terms of literacy that you don’t hack things away so quickly. So that’s why I think it’s very, very good and I also like, I think you mentioned it in a podcast once, this analogy to the AOL CDs back then, or DVDs, where am I already in? I think you also mentioned that once. Would you like to go into the parallel with AOL and Boris Becker?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, that’s where it was, so to speak. They made a clip like that 20 years ago. Yes, it really was 20 years ago, when you simply put the AOL CD in the drive, pressed a button and it made a strange creaking noise and then you were on the Internet. And Boris Becker would ask, “Am I in yet? And of course you were there in one fell swoop. Yes, that was one of those moments too, I think it was around the turn of the millennium, but it was cool. And we just don’t have that yet. So that moment doesn’t exist. And when someone says come to the Metaverse with me, then you always have to be a little bit, then future literacy has to kick in and you also have to understand, okay, I’m trying to sell someone nonsense. I also tend to think that this more event example is a very good one, because it also shows how easy it is to burn topics like this. For example, I’m noticing right now that the demand for the podcast is still high, but it’s already the case that people are reacting more and more annoyed to the topic, which is also ridiculed and rightly so, I have to say.
Thomas Riedel
Because how many people simply called all sorts of things the metaverse was just crap or just a kind of pied piper method. So you have to say, yes, of course the term has been burned. Thank you very much, dear people. But it could have been different if you had been a bit more critical and not made it so easy for them. And I think it’s also something that needs to be made clear, also in the context of future literacy. The definition of the metaverse that I have now proposed here is very strict and deliberately oblique, because it is helpful in differentiating other things. Does this mean that we will only have the meta in the future? No. Does it mean that there will be nothing else? No. Does it mean that the metaverse will be the most important thing in the world? No. Does it mean that we will no longer use the normal Internet? No. Does it mean we won’t go out into the real world and do things?
Thomas Riedel
No. It just means an additional story, an additional medium, a massive medium that comes along, which is a possibility that hopefully works, that hopefully helps us make the world a better place. Adding another aspect that makes something better. I don’t know. Something in any case. What works well spatially already exists. Maybe we can talk about a few application examples in a moment. But it’s not a substitute for everything. It’s not the one future, the one technology, the very best in the world. And it should always be viewed with a critical eye. The various aspects that go hand in hand with it are energy consumption, the potential for abuse, isolation from the outside world, escapism, so to speak. This goes hand in hand with addictive aspects. If we have anything that we don’t have, that we can take with us, then these are all the mistakes that we have learned from the development of the internet. But this way of dealing with these concepts, so to speak. That’s what it’s easy to stumble over if you don’t have this future literacy and media literacy in general.
Thomas Riedel
Which you can tell by the fact that people just blindly go into Online Walking Simulator on the internet and say oops, am I in the metaverse now? No.
Thorsten Jekel
And that’s why I think
Thomas Riedel
But it doesn’t mean bad either.
Thorsten Jekel
That’s another reason why it’s even good again that it’s a dystopia, because it’s, it’s thought-provoking and also says okay, I think it would have been almost more critical if it was a utopia just in the context of Super Wonderland. So you already know, right? Or at least you’re encouraged to do so if you don’t take it as a construction manual, but as a stimulus to think about the ethical issues, to say what do I want, what do I perhaps not want, what are the risks involved? I think that’s important. And what I also found great in one episode, I can only recommend that to everyone. Listen to Thomas’ podcast, because it really brings up totally different aspects that I’ve never thought about before. Let me give you an example: you had an episode with an interview where he talked about how the Metaverse or applications that already exist in this area today also enable inclusion. For example, for older people who are no longer able to travel, who may have visual or hearing impairments.
Thorsten Jekel
There were several aspects where I said hey, wait a minute, on the one hand you have to be careful not to exclude some non-tech-savvy people from this topic. That only results in the meta working. On the other hand, there may also be the possibility of the 25-year-old grandpa, who may no longer be traveling in the physical world and is able to travel. He can then still participate in what the family is doing via audio and video, via both options. So maybe you could say three sentences about that, because that was a really exciting episode in your podcast. I read or heard it somewhere else.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, I’m just thinking about which one that was.
Thorsten Jekel
That could be it. I honestly don’t know. I’ve heard them all. Have you? There are a few podcasts like that for me. The state of the nation. What you know from Philip Banse. Ulf Buermeyer is always a standard for me, where I say I listen to them every week, I get withdrawal symptoms if they come on a day later. And then there are a few podcasts that I listen to even if I get on later. Oh, and I was skiing with my family over Christmas and I really listened to your podcast on the slopes right through to the first episode, and that’s only a few. So I really recommend it, because it’s a great podcast, which of course addresses topics again and again, but always from different angles. And I found the site very interesting, because I think people always think that people who put on VR glasses are somehow nerds, but I found that a very interesting aspect. So maybe you’d like to share a few thoughts on it.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, that is also one of the more critical points. Including the issue of energy consumption. The question is: do we actually still need a technology that excludes people? Yes, well, it’s not that easy to wear these glasses. For example, you also need a certain form of mobility to be able to use these glasses. But it’s also possible to use them without being too mobile thanks to the tracking technologies. You just have to know how. And that doesn’t work with every app. So if you’re in a wheelchair, it’s difficult to get involved with a fitness app like this. Or if you can only use one arm, then you can just use Beat Saber. Well, you actually need two arms. By the way, there was an update in the last update. You can now also play it with one arm, which is very cool. And that yes, that one. It’s a general social trend to develop barrier-free, because it’s not just barrier-free for disabled people, people with disabilities, but actually includes all people.
Thomas Riedel
That makes it easier for everyone. And I think it’s a very good idea to approach the development of the Metaverse with this in mind. Why, for example, isn’t every website today automatically accessible in the sense of being machine-readable and readable by screenwheelers? Yes, very few of them are. Why isn’t every WordPress blog automatically machine-readable? Agencies build websites for 50 million for a giant company, but don’t manage to make the thing accessible. So we have to ask ourselves these questions too. And quite a few people who need this, by the way. And their freedom doesn’t mean that only people with disabilities use it, but also people who simply need it. Simply as a form of assistance. That also exists and we have to think of it in a different way. So what can the Metaverse actually do to be barrier-free or to enable social contact? For people who just can’t get out of the house or who find it difficult to get out of the house or rarely leave the house. And that’s just like the internet.
Thomas Riedel
Of course, during the Corona period, we all searched with our grandmas and Microsoft Teams used our stuff and that was also very cool. And of course it can also be similar when we have a meter or even today via social media, where the question is yes, do you actually have a different experience? And what’s exciting is that it goes beyond just seeing each other, because you’re in a shared space and perceive it as a space, so it feels more like a social story. You’re much closer, you hear the people, you see the people. And I can tell you an unpleasant experience I had one of the first times I was in the Red Room and someone whispered in my ear from behind and I literally flinched. And that’s when I realized how physical it actually was and it was very unpleasant, but just as there are unpleasant things, there are also very pleasant things and you can experience them when you’re in a wheelchair or old and can no longer move like that.
Thomas Riedel
And that’s very cool. Yes, so that’s another aspect.
Thorsten Jekel
At the event in 2D now, for example, we streamed patient congresses during the pandemic, in the normal, traditional 2D format, and we reached around 500 people in face-to-face events beforehand and then we did it online, reaching 3,000 people at once. And you can’t imagine how many thank-you letters and emails we received from people who said, finally I was able to take part because I’m in bed, I can’t travel anymore and it was such valuable information. It was about pain therapy, about music therapy, where you could really help people who were no longer mobile. I think I found that a great aspect that reminded me of it again and that’s why I think it’s a shame when, as you say, the formats are burned. If these opportunities are not available to people who are no longer as mobile for whatever reason, be it for health or age reasons, for various reasons, then there is a great opportunity.
Thorsten Jekel
But you were just about to say something else. Sorry to have interrupted you.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, that’s not a problem. One aspect that I also find very exciting is the audio aspect. You see a lot with your eyes, but ultimately you actually perceive a lot spatially through your ears. And a nice question. One question that I also discussed with Dirk was: How can this actually work? It will look without eyes. So is it possible and conceivable and constructible to have an auditory spatial experience? And I would say yes, it is possible. And we already have individual experiences. Audio plays, for example, which are really fantastic at showing how you can feel thrown into a room, how you can experience something there. And that’s why I believe that if you make it interactive and actually build the network that way. So you first have to learn how it actually works. But ultimately, it’s about having social audio that is spatial and where you can be together spatially in order to have a metaverse or a spatial experience.
Thorsten Jekel
Important and what you say about having the experience. So I also believe that virtual reality is now one of the technologies of a potential. I hope that’s the right term. Always feel free to correct me if I’m just there.
Thomas Riedel
So you should actually always say it.
Thorsten Jekel
I oversimplify, you can always correct me when I look, I, anyone who hasn’t experienced it, I say you have to try it to understand it, to feel it. Because I also found it so exciting. I’m sure you were aware of the discussion when there was this shitstorm when Mark Zuckerberg presented his avatars and people said yes, this comedy sometimes, you have no idea of reality at all. So you probably know Robert Vogel and his VR Stammtisch. We meet once a week with a group of people where we simply try out different platforms. And when I was in the Facebook environment for the first time, sitting at this table with the comic people, I was immediately involved and it didn’t matter at all that they weren’t real faces. And what you also mentioned, that the person sitting to my left could also be heard to my left, right from the start, the person sitting to my right could be heard to my right, had a much greater effect than it necessarily having to be real.
Thorsten Jekel
And I got to know some people at the VR Stammtisch before I met them in person. And with some of them I was surprised that they suddenly had no hair. But at the end of the day, there was already a personal relationship and level and I can only ever say that trying things out is very important. I always invite people to the regulars’ table, where I tell them to just come along. Robert Vogel is also always very generous and very open and perhaps a level deeper than I experienced with audio. I recently switched from the classic Apple Airports to the Airports Pro and they have special audio in them and I wouldn’t have thought what a difference it would make. And I can even say, when I turn my head, should the audio source remain static or should it move with me? I think that’s an extreme difference and I can only ever tell everyone to try it out, or what’s your approach to the subject?
Thomas Riedel
Absolutely, yes. You can only experience virtual reality by immersing yourself in it. And please don’t. Yes. That’s the worst idea you can have. So, it’s just always great. Honestly, it’s the stupidest thing you can do. You watch VR for the first time and then sit on a rollercoaster. You can completely mess everything up, but it’s nice and pleasant. You can go into the experience where there are other people, talk to them, go out again and say how was it? And the audio at Horizon Work Rooms. What you just mentioned is very, very well done. So this special audio just works fantastically and just with simple stereo speakers. And me. I had Martin Rieger as a guest for one of my questions. I can recommend this episode to anyone who is interested in this aspect. Yes, it explains very, very well why this works at all, i.e. how spatial hearing works. And I’ll summarize it very briefly like this Our ears have a certain shape. They are not completely symmetrical, but they have muscles.
Thomas Riedel
They just stick out backwards, like this, the auricles. And they function like a kind of filter. This means that sounds coming from behind are filtered by the pinnae and only then enter the ear. As a result, the frequencies are missing. Our brain has now learned that sounds coming from behind sound like this and that’s why it has a spatial effect. And that’s what makes the principle of massive audio is the sounds. Like this. Depending on where they are in the room. Filtering them the way we have learned to do with our ears. This means that other creatures might not be able to hear or understand it at all, because the audio would have to be filtered in a different way. And that’s why it only works with two stereo headphones or with headphones that are very close or that also have this filtering method, so to speak. And that’s what makes great audio in VR, for example, that they have these filters built in to make it very clear – look, he’s sitting right now and you can hear how far away from you he is and in which direction.
Thorsten Jekel
I find it again and again. So that’s really great. They also say it does a good job or space. These are the platforms that I use a lot.
Thomas Riedel
And then it doesn’t matter what you see. That’s what’s so fascinating. It’s actually more of a kind of guardrail, what you see, but it’s really about, if the audio is good, everything is actually okay. More than that is fine, it mustn’t flicker or anything. So it can’t be complete garbage either, but ultimately that’s not so important. Rather in the longer term. So if you’re in there for several hours, then yes, of course. If what you see is very exhausting, then you can’t stand it for long. But the audio, me, the most important thing and that is also very often underestimated, makes sense. You can also listen to the special audio in this episode. We’ve built in a few things so that you can hear it really well and it’s fun. So the episode, I think.
Thorsten Jekel
I think it’s great. Max Perhaps you could also explain what motion sickness is and how it develops, because some people may be familiar with it. You just said roller coaster. But I’m going to say that there’s also the term motion sickness in normal applications, so maybe you could say three bars about that.
Thomas Riedel
So motion sickness is a disease that you can actually get when you’re in virtual reality. It’s a real disease that exists and a lot of people have it. I’m not quite sure what percentage that is. But it’s definitely not a small number and the vast majority have motion sickness if you actually send them on the rollercoaster. So that’s not something you go on. It’s practically a kind of tolerance threshold and, depending on how high you set it, everyone is actually motion SEC at some point, so the first tests, headsets that were available in the 90s, for example, were all automatically motion. So it was really only the very dull people who didn’t feel anything, but that was really the very fewest people. So scientists report how they regularly threw up because it was simply horrible. So, you don’t actually have to throw up anymore today, but you still get motion sickness and the effect arises because the brain perceives something different from what the body experiences.
Thomas Riedel
So when you move normally in space, you move through the inner ear into liquids, for example, which then move and are calibrated with the real world, so to speak. This means that when I move my head, the liquid moves in this way. The little hairs are touched and my brain says ‘All right, I’ve just moved like this, I’m in this room. But now you can get different signals through your eyes and then you might move in a way that doesn’t match the movements of the liquids in my inner ear. And the brain doesn’t understand that and says What’s going on here? Is something wrong? Attention, attention, alarm! There are mixed signals and then you get sick. And depending on how strong this difference is and how sensitive you are, the sicker you get. And there are a few things that you have already learned. For example, vertical movement is very, very important.
Thomas Riedel
So you can look up and down, it’s not so wild, but the vertical movements quickly make you ill. That’s one of the realizations. And, of course, when the sensory overload sets in, so to speak, when everything happens too quickly. Rollercoasters are also so good because practically everything is completely extreme and it doesn’t match the current state of the body at all. And that’s one of them. This is actually a problem that is being worked on. A lot can be done by improving the graphics, i.e. improving the displays in the headsets. I don’t think it will ever go away completely. I even had motion sickness the other day when I was Hero. I was watching the new Avatar movie, which is now even sharper thanks to the new RF technology. The frame rate in the keynote has been increased from 24 to 48 frames per second and they’ve added a certain amount of blurring with software, a depth of field, to somehow get rid of that theater look. And it looks incredibly good.
Thomas Riedel
But you notice this as soon as the camera pans like this. And you have a huge screen in front of you. And it’s so sharp. Do you feel like you’re in the scene? In other words, it’s now so immersive that you start to get motion sickness in the keynote. That means you have to be careful that the quality doesn’t get too high in the movie theater. And that’s very interesting. So we’re already at the point in Keynote where motion sickness sets in again, because it looks too good.
Thorsten Jekel
Now I think we agree that there is a meter where it doesn’t yet exist, that today there are individual, I’ll call it islands that have the potential to merge into one at some point and there are definitely initiatives to do so. Now I’d like to take a half step back and say that many of these experiences work with virtual reality and you’ve also conducted some great interviews with Torsten himself, who I also really appreciate. In my opinion, he knows what he’s talking about, especially when it comes to virtual reality and learning. In your opinion, where are the best and most interesting use cases in this area that can perhaps already be used today? Even if they don’t exist yet, there may be one or two that can be used along the way. What do you think are the most exciting use cases?
Thomas Riedel
Yeah, so towards the metaverse I tend to only ever use VR as an example because I’m not so sure it will ever be part of a meta. It could be, but it probably won’t happen until very, very late. That’s why you can already do things with it today, but it doesn’t have that much to do with the metaverse. But it still makes sense to look into it. So there are some really great applications, but I’ll leave them for now.
Thorsten Jekel
Outside of that, because we know what VR and everything else is, just before you go on, explain the difference again, what is VR, what is AR? But perhaps not every listener knows the difference, not every listener knows exactly what it is.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, you experience augmented reality, for example, when you take out your cell phone, turn on the camera and then place a 3D object in the room. So you’re practically looking through the camera and then you have digital objects somehow in the room or you have overlays in there. Ideally, in the future we will have glasses on that give us this overlay and you see the real world and digital information is projected into it. What we are currently working on is not just displaying something independently of the room, but that it is also practically anchored in the room. To do this, these glasses also have to be able to perceive the room, so to speak, and then do things in relation to the room. So the vase stays on the table, the digital vase. So the glasses must, must have an understanding of this space and have the corresponding sensors. And today we can already experience this a little with a cell phone or tablet. The first glasses are already available that can do this. But we’re still a relatively long way from us all walking around with these glasses, I say now in the knowledge that Google will have two more cinemas this year and might show something again.
Thomas Riedel
So it could also be that I’m being proven wrong again. I’m asking for it. Virtual reality is full immersion in a digital space. And in such a way that you actually see nothing of the other world, of a normal world. In other words, you put on the glasses, it’s pitch black, you turn them on and then you are immersed in a completely different world. The completely artificial world is virtual reality. Mixed reality is a mixture of the two. You wear virtual reality glasses, but the cameras built into them allow parts of this reality to pass through reality, for example. This means, for example, that Horizon Work Rooms can be hard to describe if you have seen and experienced it yourself. But let’s say you put on virtual reality glasses and immerse yourself completely in an artificial digital space while sitting at your desk. And what you can still see of the real world is your real keyboard and your real mouse, because the cameras attached to them let them through.
Thomas Riedel
So it’s called passive mode. And that means you can work on your real computer. In the real world, however, you see a digital representation in an artificial room. And the advantage is that the headset can also show the others who are working with me. This is what is known as mixed reality, and people say that a bit of mixed reality might be the killer application of the Metaverse in everyday life, because it makes collaboration a bit cooler. You wear the glasses, sit on your own computer and can work with others in real time via Voice over IP with immersive audio. In dialog, for example.
Thorsten Jekel
A classic explanation, because as I said, I always hear a lot of marketing speak and we know what VR is to me. But not every listener does. That’s why I’m now looking forward to the use cases that you see as the most exciting.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, we’re mostly talking about more professional applications here, i.e. B2B etc., which is quite clear. Virtual reality, for example, has been around for a long time in the gaming sector. It’s simply been around for ten years, is growing continuously, is getting better and better and is also the foundation of everything we do today, because that’s where the developers are who have experience with it. This is the hardware that we use today to do other things of a professional nature. The biggest use case is actually learning. I personally think that’s actually the most important one of mine, because we don’t take education seriously enough anyway and further education and training and that’s actually one of the biggest use cases you can have. Let me give you a good example There’s a startup here in Cologne that has developed Marla. It’s a virtual reality school simulation for repairing a wind turbine. The problem with such a wind turbine is that it is relatively far out, especially if it is offshore. It is relatively high. And getting there means that you have to fly there in a ship or a helicopter and then go there and learn how to do it.
Thomas Riedel
Or you can watch some training videos, which can be nice. If they’re made like Forklift Claus, they can also be funny, but honestly, the best way to see them is to fly there and then learn how to repair a wind turbine on site. And what Marla is doing is a tutorial on how to practically learn how to repair a wind turbine in VR. In other words, a prototype wind turbine has been built and you go through certain steps, you have to go up and down, look for the tools, see where the motor is. What do you do with it? And then I also have augmented information, so to speak, on how to repair something, what is important etc.. In other words, you learn how to do it in a virtual reality simulation before you go to the wind turbine, so that the actual training on the wind turbine is quicker and easier. And the great thing is that you could, in principle, I don’t think they’ve done that yet. But you could also, for example, if you’re supposed to repair other wind turbines and you can only repair type A, you could suddenly repair type B in virtual reality with a training course that doesn’t take that long because you’ve already done it virtually.
Thomas Riedel
That, for example, is a very, very um. This training aspect is super exciting, especially with things that are so inaccessible. Large machines, machines that are complicated. It’s super exciting at first. A great, great team event, by the way, is the safety training for employees. Um, so how do you learn how to use a fire extinguisher in virtual reality? Because you can simulate fire. Easier than me. Then there is. There’s a startup in Bonn that pushes you. First they put on the virtual reality headset, then they put a real fire extinguisher equipped with sensors in your hand. And you can then practise how to extinguish different fires in virtual reality. And it’s realistic. In other words, can you do it? In virtual reality, the probability is very high that you can do it in real life. And that’s a kind of learning that you can otherwise only do in the back of the parking lot.
Thorsten Jekel
If the fire department is there and you do the test fire, it’s the same or with the Bundeswehr. That’s exactly where you can learn it. But apart from that, you don’t usually do that and it often improves, sometimes because of the environmental impact. But in virtual reality, you can just do things like that. That’s great. So that’s also great, of course. And let me put it this way, there really are an incredible number of examples that are already being used in everyday life. Siemens, for example, has equipped every training course they offer with virtual reality courses, and not just some pseudo courses. So you put on the glasses or do it yourself. You’ve also done some reality, but you’re also motivated. That’s how it goes, thanks for the addition, but also brought.
Thomas Riedel
Exactly, but real use cases. I have to learn the ones that are needed faster and better. One example is equipping high-voltage chains. People regularly die because they reach in incorrectly and you can practise beforehand where you can and can’t reach in. And if you reach in wrongly, you realize it without dying straight away. In other words, you can practise the movement sequences because they are physically correct and correspond very closely to reality. You can also learn how to behave in relation to a high-voltage box, how to reach into it, etc., or how everything belongs there, etc.. So that really is the case.
Thorsten Jekel
It’s also a very good example to keep telling myself that my perception is always that when there are new technologies, the first phase is totally overestimated. That means AI can do everything. I recently visited self-driving vehicles in Berlin. I found an exhibition about visions of the future from the past very interesting. And there were videos from the 1950s where the whole family is somehow drinking coffee in a General Motors car. And then they’re somehow driving self-driving cars. So completely overrated. And then at some point I experience exactly the other thing, that at some point this disillusionment phase comes, that topics are burned out and then it is totally underestimated what is already possible, so that one’s own perception is also. And then I think that the opportunities offered by technologies are not used, because people say yes, it will happen at some point. Hello, it already exists. So these are things that are already feasible today.
Thorsten Jekel
And even if there is no final metaverse yet, it already exists today. I’ll call them building blocks from this area that can already be used today. Or what is your perception?
Thomas Riedel
That’s also a credo of my podcast, that I say people, this thing is called the Metaverse podcast, because we want to investigate how we can incorporate what we already have today into metal. But to do that, we first have to take stock and see what’s already out there today. And if you look around, that’s actually the discovery I made, so to speak. At the beginning of the podcast, there is an industry that is as big as the gaming industry. The last study by the TU Cologne here in Cologne already has. It was published last year and is now as big as the German developer, i.e. games, developer scene. In other words, there’s a lot going on and it’s already here today, regardless of whether the metaverse is here tomorrow or not. This scene has developed completely independently of any hype. It’s been developing since 2014. That was the new song, the new crystallization point for massive media with the founding of Oculus.
Thomas Riedel
They then made a successful crowdfunding project and for the first time developed headsets that don’t make you feel sick straight away, but work really well. What we see today with the further development of Quest 2 and Crispro and really very good headsets. And since then, this scene has developed and become bigger and bigger. It hasn’t developed like a field hockey stick, but in a nice linear fashion, but that’s a very good and very stable sign. It’s also simply that we now have established technologies that are really useful and not just a gimmick.
Thorsten Jekel
But you also brought up a very important point. Tom Friedlaender is our musical co-host, with whom we do a lot of live streaming events. He also does The Human Jukebox, because he says, “Tell me what you want to hear” and he fulfills music. He also fulfills requests in livestreams, i.e. in interactive form, and that’s what got me thinking about Twitch. Because he’s been a gamer for years. I don’t come from the gaming scene. I’m not actually a gamer and he once told me what you do in the live streaming industry. We Twitter and gamers are laughing our heads off. We were already doing that ten years ago. So that means with interaction and with, let’s say, chat elements and with various things and including monetization. And that was really interesting for me to say again. If you don’t come from the gaming scene, it makes total sense to take a look at the gaming scene because it is often a pioneer in this area. And it doesn’t mean that you have to play World of Warcraft all day, but at least you can get elements from it and I think they have a clear head start, don’t you?
Thorsten Jekel
Is it still like that or what is your perception?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, it’s also the case that the technology is first tried out there, which is then later built or developed in the professional sector. So a lot of things, including server stuff, are first tried out in the gaming scene and then brought over. Sometimes it’s the other way around. For example, when Glasses came out, it was discovered that they weren’t useful for the consumer market at all. Okay, we’ll do it for the 2b now. And now it has been developed almost exclusively for B2B. So Hololence is also a device that was developed almost exclusively for the B2B sector and was never really intended for gaming. That also happens again and again. But it’s actually the other way around and that’s where you learn the, um, the social component that’s added. I think that’s the biggest difference in the whole story. A lot of things have already been tried out that work very well and earn a lot of money.
Thorsten Jekel
Another good point. Again, I think there’s been a lot of real clickbait in terms of the headline interface over the last 14 days, when Microsoft said okay, we’re cutting off one of our platforms here. So it was said that Microsoft was getting out of the Metaverse and everyone said that now the issue is over, Microsoft and Meta are also getting out soon. Can I say three more sentences about that? Because I found his last episode really exciting, which I listened to at the weekend.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, that was of course a mega upset, where I ended up on Links again in our little circle because I let out my frustration. The title was even more explicit. It said that Microsoft was pulling the plug on the Metaverse. Like this. So no, it’s like when I don’t close Microsoft Word, it shuts down and everyone says the Internet is gone. Nobody would think of that. No one would. And that’s exactly what happened. So what did Microsoft do? Of course, like all other tech companies, it announced that it was laying off many, many employees, namely 10,000 employees. You have to know that they have hired 30,000 additional people in the last two and a half years, but then of course realized okay, we can’t keep that up. The economy is going down again, we have to lay people off, just like everyone else is doing. And then there was time. Of course, a company always uses something like this to tidy things up a bit at the same time. For all companies When there’s a mood like that, always excellent, you can rub your hands together and say Kevin, can I get rid of him now?
Thomas Riedel
Okay, maybe a bit malicious, but it’s also quite good, let’s say from a corporate hygiene point of view, to be able to concentrate on certain things again. And Microsoft has also seized this opportunity and divested itself of large parts of its VRX stories. This includes, for example, Old Space VR, a metaverse as a platform, you could say, a kind of proto-metaverse. Just a few rough terms. Again, where a community has been built since 2015. In 2017, this community was on the verge of bankruptcy and Microsoft bought it for a really interesting sum. I don’t think it was too much and then dedicated itself to this community, which has lasted to this day and was also a really important pillar in the industry because it was also an interesting mix of consumer and B2B. You could try out a few things as a company and log in with your Microsoft account. That feels a bit better for the companies if they can do it that way.
Thomas Riedel
That’s why this was a pretty important story, was shot down. Just like MRTK, Mixed Reality Toolkit is a set of different tools based on the application that a developer can use to develop programs for the Hololense. It’s open source, which is a good thing, meaning that although the agencies are now discontinuing the further development of this tool, it is of course available as open source. This means that it can still be used. But that’s another sign where you say okay, what’s actually happening here? I think they’re just saying goodbye to hololence a bit, but they’ve stepped on the gas when it comes to mesh. This is another technology that they have developed in parallel, so to speak, which is basically something like Old Space, but not consumer-oriented, but business-oriented. And we’re now waiting for them to communicate a bit more about it so that we can find out more about what they’re actually planning to do with it. But they haven’t completely said goodbye to it, so you can tell that yes, they’ve said goodbye to a few things, but they haven’t shut the whole thing down.
Thomas Riedel
Of course not, but simply a few business units have separated or shifted resources and they are of course still interested in the sector and metals, as Jan Adela emphasized once again at the World Economic Forum how important this is for him, because it is a very powerful, effective medium. And they will want to continue to invest in it. Yes, and you have to do a bit of that now.
Thorsten Jekel
I would like to briefly mention another smaller player, Apple, which has been the subject of rumors for a long time. My personal prediction on this topic is that Apple has the potential to help this virtual augmented reality technology achieve a breakthrough on a broader scale, because Apple is always the last to bring it to market. But what can they do? Usability. In other words, if you have an Apple device like this, then it is simply suitable for mass use, because today, with the many updates that you thankfully always discuss in a podcast, onboarding for an Oculus Quest 2, for example, has become much easier. So when I first got the glasses a year and a half ago. I always put the glasses up and down and entered the code. So I went mad, I had this thing set up somehow. I think Apple has the potential to go one better in terms of usability. Some people are now saying that something is coming this year, while others have said that Apple has now completely wrapped up the whole topic.
Thorsten Jekel
What is your assessment of this?
Thomas Riedel
I’ve become very careful about that. There were a few things in the rumors where I said, “Attention, alarm! That sounds strange. For example, this headset is supposed to have an external battery that you wear on your belt. That’s something that would make former Apple designers turn in their graves if they saw it. I find that strange. I don’t think Apple would do that. So that’s an indication for me to be a bit careful. Another indication was that the headset should have a display on the outside so that you can see the eyes. For example, that’s another point where I think Apple wouldn’t do that. That sounds strange. It seems very nerdy. It seems like something you’d see at an underground disco in Berlin, but I meet people there who have displays in front of their eyes. But they don’t have much else on and are on Roger. That might be really cool for the scene and the location and they party there.
Thomas Riedel
Or here at this big festival in America, they walk around like that. I can’t imagine that Apple really does that and that’s just the way it is. You always have to be careful. It sounds to me as if these leagues have seen a prototype where Apple has been testing. So how could certain things be and work? Or you all know about the watch, the Apple Watch. This is now a Google Watch. Here’s the crown. Apparently there’s supposed to be a crown on the side of the headset to switch between augmented and virtual reality. I don’t know. That also seems strange to me. So the food is very small. That means I’d have to do it with a little button or something. I think Apple would do it differently. Even today, we have a better way if we tap twice on the Quest two on the side. Switch that. It’s more elegant. I would never do it with the extra button. So, and there are examples where I think no, not really.
Thomas Riedel
But then again, there are also a lot of technological hints, so the iPhone is currently the best augmented reality device out there. You just have to say that. The technologies it contains for augmented reality are fantastic. There are various interfaces in there. They have their own chip for it. There are kids in there that are particularly good at displaying spatial information, arcite and so on. There are many others, like Gerhard Schröder for example, who can tell you a lot more about it.
Thorsten Jekel
Is all, for example.
Thomas Riedel
Headphones.
Thorsten Jekel
There’s also a colleague at work who did an exciting episode with you.
Speaker 3
Exactly.
Thomas Riedel
Exactly. And the K3 is the one. And that means that there is a lot of technology on the Apple side that is already there, for example things like establishing communication between the devices, which Apple does damn well. They can do that because they have control over both the software and the hardware. And if you think a little further, then glasses seem to be the next logical step. So they somehow wedge themselves between the phone, smartwatch and MacBook. And then it does things, yes, it shows something from the MacBook, it might show modifications from the cell phone, it replaces a bit. Or the watch provides data for the glasses or something. You can let your imagination run wild and imagine what Apple is building there now. The additional problem I see is physics. We’re currently at a point where physical limits are being reached and they have to be reached. These problems have to be solved first.
Thomas Riedel
What do I mean by that? With the smartphone, we have managed to pack a lot of power into a very small form factor. We have also managed to do this because this smartphone only has one display and only has a two-dimensional, relatively small display. It’s now relatively easy to pack a lot of memory and computing capacity into this small box. And the ratio of battery, computing power and display is optimal. This means that the thing lasts for almost two days, which is the case with the new devices. Unless you’re gaming all the time or just doing accounts with it, then maybe not. But basically the thing lasts 36 hours. No question about it. In other words, we have optimized the ratio of energy to performance. Now we have the problem with a headset that the displays in it have a pretty difficult task. They have to process many times more information. That means the ratio is off. And that really means a lot more consumption. This means that the resolution has to be even higher than on a cell phone and practically the entire space around it has to be calculated.
Thomas Riedel
This requires a lot more memory, power and computing capacity. In other words, the ratio of energy input. To what comes out of it. This needs to be broken down even further, optimized again. And that’s where we come up against very clear limits. They all have heat problems because they push the CPU to the limit. The batteries run out super fast and you’ve only been doing something for two hours. You have to think of it like this: a Metaquest 2 is a cell phone. The technology that goes into it is a phone. And it has exactly the same computing power in it. It’s got the same processor chip that’s in every cell phone, which has been adapted a little. And it has a similar battery and similar displays. And when I put the glasses on, the thing lasts 36 hours, but only two hours. This illustrates how much more energy is required to calculate and crack virtual reality. That will be a real physical challenge. Researched.
Thomas Riedel
But this is not a quick fix. And what we’re all wondering now, of course, is Does Apple have something up its sleeve? Have they made some kind of breakthrough that gives them an advantage in some way, be it in battery technology? They have a very efficient chip. That’s cool. That’s a hint. Also, the M2 chip, the new one, which is of course super efficient, but has a lot of power, is actually made for this. Basically being in a headset like this. This means that the ratio between energy consumption and computing power has changed again. Which is extremely important. In other words, we are now trying to fantasize about what Apple could do. And the mixture of our own chip plus a great jury could possibly lead to them being a little better and perhaps even feeling a lot better. And the marketing also helps to make us think wow, they’re really nice. Ahead of all the other manufacturers. But it’s technically simple. They can do a bit more.
Thorsten Jekel
The guys from Cupertino.
Thomas Riedel
But very accurate. It’s absolutely good that they’re expecting to launch it on the market soon. It’s guaranteed not to have a battery pack on the side or a display on the outside. That would be strange. But I’ll be happy if they do. I can do that. Then I’m, uh, then I can say I’m I was wrong. Which is good, because then you learn something. But I can’t imagine that. It’s a bit of a waiting game, as it always is. And as a journalist, you unfortunately have to emphasize that again and again. We know it was.
Thorsten Jekel
Always Google. So it feels like they’ve taken a step back from the market in recent years. What is your personal assessment of Google’s future strategy?
Thomas Riedel
They were one of the first. So when Oculus came out, they immediately followed suit and brought out this Google Glass. And the skateboards and the three of them are a few keywords. Yes, they were really far ahead of the game. We then realized that there was no traction, so we stopped development and let it go. I think it was on the penultimate Google.io by now. Time is running out. Yes, you have to say that. That was when they showed a new prototype, a pair of glasses that were integrated into various services. Google now has certain services on offer based on its data and the kids they train, which are very exciting, for example in terms of speech synthesis or language or cognition and which are paired with a certain connectivity and tons of server cis. Were you able to show something now? You showed a pair of glasses that translate speech like a babel fish, in real time, and practically display it in augmented reality.
Thomas Riedel
That means you have glasses on, the other person speaks Japanese and I can read along in my language in real time on the display. That’s fantastic. And what we now expect from Google, so to speak, is that they. So we’ve stepped on the gas again to develop something like this because they basically have all the services and technologies for it. And what we expect, so to speak, is a pair of glasses that offer more of these useful services. But we don’t actually know any more details. So that’s really the most we know. There are a few things that I find exciting that you could perhaps mention. For example, Google has a lot of augmented reality stuff on its cell phones. With Google Maps, you can display arrows in the world in real time, showing you where to turn off or where to walk into. Navigation in augmented reality works very well, it’s fun because that’s how the location works. So they have a service where you can practically determine the real location down to the centimeter based on the optical information that comes in via the cell phone camera and can also attach things to it.
Thomas Riedel
They can now do this and it is of course a great example of how you can use the glasses to display certain information at certain locations with super high accuracy. And I found one example that you showed very exciting. So everything you can do with augmented reality on a cell phone could, in principle, also be done on glasses. That would have to be said in principle first. But you showed another example. You were in a supermarket with the camera, with the cell phone camera, and you drove over a shelf. And certain labels and information about these products were then shown on the cell phone display in augmented reality. And I actually find that very, very exciting. Basically, you can do this immediately on the glasses. So I go to the supermarket and I have configured my preferences, namely I would like things from the region, they should be cheap. And I also tell them what’s more important to me I want, I’m lactose intolerant and my wife said not so much fat.
Thomas Riedel
So, then I can. Somehow I can set things and I walk through the shelf and say on my receipt, on my shopping sheet it says I need butter. So, and then the Google search practically offers me augmented reality different products or I want to buy chocolate, I go from the chocolate shelf, look at the shelf and different products are recommended to me. So now it’s getting exciting. But I can do it well, because it’s a good example that I also like to use in other presentations. What can companies do, so to speak? So what will search engine optimization look like in the future? It could be that in future I will only see products that somehow provide information in 3D or for 3D. In other words, I look at this chocolate shelf. But only seven of these 20 types of chocolate are highlighted. Only five were recommended to me. Only one friend has bought the chocolate. But I will most likely choose any one of these seven types of chocolate. I don’t see the other 13.
Thomas Riedel
I don’t see them.
Thorsten Jekel
What I found really exciting was this example of a retailer in a pedestrian zone, for example, and then I can use this technology on eBay. That they say, okay, I’ll get people into the store. So I also found that exciting. I’ve been in the store now. So they also found the expansion exciting, right up to the discussion about what to do with the outdoor advertising, where there is still this question. Okay, who has the rights to display something on my physical object? So I also found this topic in your podcast very exciting.
Thomas Riedel
Exactly. And companies that have not optimized themselves for the three D search, with their data, with their products, they are not seen. And I think that’s something that provides an answer to the question of how I can prepare for the metaverse today. Although I don’t yet believe that this will actually be the whole metaverse somehow. But it just might. In the future, it could happen that products are selected in real time, in the store, in the store itself. This means that digitizing my products and having all my product data available today not only helps me to respond to such future developments, but also to be able to run better evaluations and optimize my processes today. In communication, too, there is always a demand for data that is not yet available. So it also makes a lot of sense to market products. That means the consistent further development of digitalization, my entire value chain, my product development and so on. This is what will actually become increasingly important in the future, simply because all the channels are becoming more and more digital or offline channels are becoming more digitalized through VR, for example.
Thorsten Jekel
I’m also someone who always says that when it comes to AI, for example, where there’s a discussion right now about ChatGPT and Mic Journey and similar services where it’s being replaced and the AI where I don’t think AI is replacing us in the big picture. But if you’re not, let’s say, smart, then you’ll be replaced by people using AI tools as a tool. So I think that’s the issue. And just like I say in retail, you’re not going to be replaced by Amazon, you’re going to be replaced by other retailers, whether online or offline, who use technology smartly. And when I google on a skiing vacation, for example, we were in a sports store and you have physical limitations, as we talked about earlier. A store is limited, which means you can’t have every item in every variation. My wife tried on a pair of trousers and they fitted her perfectly. But they weren’t in her favorite color, they had a huge display in the store, so it wasn’t an issue.
Thorsten Jekel
We also have it in a different color. You can see what it looks like here. It does fit. If you want, you can either pick them up here in the store tomorrow or I can send them home. That’s what my wife did. She bought the pants. Because at that moment it was simply, let’s say use case oriented, smart. And that’s something where I’m blowing your horn. To say people, why don’t you take advantage of the opportunities today, even one step ahead. So one of my favorite boutiques in Hamburg, for example, is a women’s boutique and then you say, maybe you have a weird fetish or something, no, that’s why it’s one of my favorite boutiques, where I like to go with my wife, because they have a little boutique in the middle of their store, they have a sofa and that thing, there’s delicious coffee to drink, there are men to read magazines. And the cool thing is, when my wife says, “Honey, does this look good on me?” I don’t even have to get up, I can assess every position in the room from the sofa and say, “Where do we put three more things?
Thorsten Jekel
So someone has thought cleverly about what the customer journey is like. That’s why I always say switch on the brain first, then the technology. And if you’re the little one, like in this store, if they were to say, “Unfortunately, the hat is only available in one color, my wife says it’s not only available in blue, but also in black. If you then say look here, you have a large display, you can also reorder it. Or Keynote does it in such a way that you can also say in the store, “Oh, there are still items that were perhaps from the previous phase that you no longer have on the shelf, but things like that. I think it’s a shoe-in. And that’s why I’m pleased that interviews are often more exciting when you have different opinions. So, shockingly, we often have the same opinion, but I think it’s still exciting because I think we play the points back and forth and complement each other.
Thorsten Jekel
I think so.
Thomas Riedel
With pleasure. I would like to add something interesting here. Is it different now with Post? I don’t think it matters. Well, we have to. We don’t necessarily have to say anything about it. And it’s also not necessary to lure customers to the train in any practical way. By saying you’re here in the Metaverse, it’s the thing that you’re doing. It makes sense for your product, it makes sense for the customer, it makes sense overall in the corporate context. Then do it that way and it doesn’t matter whether it’s hype or not. You can also do things that are not hype, but the real question is Does it make sense for you? Does it make sense to you? And that’s exciting. And that’s why I also believe, for example, that things won’t be gone in the future, but will be parallel to the metaverse. We will still have the Internet and we will still go shopping on the Internet. I don’t think that’s mutually exclusive.
Thomas Riedel
The Adidas store is one of the best stores out there, performs brilliantly, you click, click, click your way through, then you click on order. The next day, this beautiful box arrives at your door. Great. It’s not going to go away. Just because the meta world stars, we won’t have cell phones tomorrow. Absolutely not. Cell phones are fantastic devices that work great, that are perfectly optimized. We may also have more and more glasses, perhaps even normal glass glasses. Augmented reality will also be able to use virtual reality glasses to do certain things even better. But the cell phone won’t go away for a while. I believe that smartwatches are a supplement to cell phones, not a replacement for them. And I think that’s the case in many areas. They will still be around. I wish the fax machine was this slow. The German Federal Network Agency is ordering another €10,000.
Thorsten Jekel
The internet is laughing its ass off. Yes.
Thomas Riedel
But. But otherwise, things that are simply super useful and good won’t go away for a while. And I think that’s also an understanding of technology, that it’s productive and useful. I don’t have to look for the next thing to replace something, I look at how I can do something better, how I can be more efficient? Can I be more social? How can I be more sustainable? And I think these are things that are simply super important. Sustainability, by the way, I think is more important than that.
Thorsten Jekel
And I would like to add to this point by saying that sometimes, as much as I smiled at the tweets about the Federal Network Agency. When I look at a company, for example, how do they deliver fastening materials, screws, dowels and things like that to construction sites? If the usability for the craftsman on the construction site is simply much easier, if they put the fax order form in there and press it and that’s it. They make seven-figure sales by fax. They would be stupid if they stopped using this channel, because they say it’s the channel that makes the most sense for customers in the construction industry. There are other areas where this may no longer be the channel of choice. So that’s why I always say switch on the brain first, then the technology. You don’t have to do every piece of shit just because it’s digital. But as you say, it makes sense. And finally, I’d like to know what your assessment is: if we’re talking about virtual reality, there are now a whole host of headsets, which you also regularly discuss in your podcast.
Thorsten Jekel
What would you currently recommend if someone said, “I want to experience it for myself”? What hardware would you recommend? Which platform would you recommend? How can you get into this topic and experience it for yourself?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, you always come back to the one brand, even though many other devices have been released since then. But the Metaquest two device, which is now almost three years old, is still the ultimate device to recommend. It costs less than 500 €, it’s light as a feather, it’s tried and tested. The software is super stable and perfectly optimized for the device. There was another update where the processor performance was increased by 7%. Just so great. It has the most experience on it, the most applause. And you also make the most friends and probably work colleagues, as they dominate 80% of the market. 80% of all headsets out there are from Meter. You have to imagine that. That means, unfortunately, that you can’t recommend any other device right now except the Method Pro.
Thorsten Jekel
The new one.
Thomas Riedel
Here it comes. But right now, assuming you have a lot of money, you can also buy the Pro. That’s basically a Quest two with a bit better features, like a color per mode or a bit different ergonomics. So the weight is distributed a bit more evenly on the head, which is a bit more comfortable to wear. It remains to be seen whether you can actually make a bigger step between the S2 and Pro via a software update. But yes, you can buy a small upgrade for eight €1,800. And the thing isn’t bad. It has a bit less battery power than the Quest two, so that’s always a bit of a problem. Well, but it’s a good device. You can have it. And then, if you’re already in the €1,000 range, you can also take a look at the devices from HTC. They’ve been around for almost as long as Oculus and have been building very, very robust, very stable, very safe devices that have also been used in professional applications, for example in the film industry.
Thomas Riedel
Partly made with technology from HTC, filmed. So that means it’s actually a super good contact in the professional sector. So there’s another one, but assuming I want to use meters, it’s a bit difficult for us industrial companies, not only because the servers are in the USA and there are some Facebook data protection concerns, but also because it’s not so easy to have your apps on it to be able to do everything. That’s where Pico comes in. Pico is now owned by the owner of Ticktack, which means that the servers are located in China, which is not entirely true, because the dpa must also be complete. This means that the servers are located in Europe for European manufacturers.
Thorsten Jekel
Have to, because that also makes sense. But many people say Facebook is evil, A is evil and so on, where I say I’m glad to get a differentiated statement, because it’s always said that the cloud is called the cloud, because they use cloud data and so on, and the Americans are all bad. So thank you for your differentiated reporting.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, and you can go one step further, you have to go one step deeper. So these devices, for example, this one that came out last year, very good device, comparable to the Quest two is not quite comparable, because simply just a clear lead, for example, simply develop much longer hand tracking. That simply means they’re much more reliable, but they’re catching up, so they can definitely be recommended. But they have a much more open platform, which means you can practically switch on a complete kiosk month and don’t have to run a server at all, it just runs on the device without an external connection. You can also build and tinker a lot more as a developer. Software-wise as a recording tag. S2 They allow a lot more. And ultimately you have to say the following These are platforms, which means it’s like the iTunes Store or the Google Play Store: if I upload an app there and I can collect data about the app, then it doesn’t go to the Google server, but to the app server of this app.
Thomas Riedel
That means you actually have to look at what kind of app I’m using and where does it come from? So if I take out my cell phone and I use Tinder, then I have to look, okay, where are the Tinder servers located and not where are the servers of my Google cell phone? So, and the servers are also in the USA, but there are other alternatives. There’s the data protection issue, which is different, because I’m not on Twitter, I’m on Mastodon. So, and that means that ultimately it almost doesn’t matter which device I have. The important question is which apps do I actually want to use? And sometimes it’s apps that I develop myself. Sometimes it’s apps that I use from other providers and then you have to take a closer look. But it’s actually almost 100% the case that the big professional providers, such as Raum, Rome or a few others, are all so well positioned professionally, even for business customers. In terms of data protection, you can simply ensure maximum security and they are there.
Thorsten Jekel
Super.
Thomas Riedel
The DBA compliant etc. is in Europe, is in Germany, if you really want it, so close. And that’s why it almost doesn’t matter which device, it’s more a question of technology, what do I need, how does it have to be developed? But I’ll say this for a quick introduction to experiencing virtual reality. Buy a Questa 2.
Thorsten Jekel
You can now buy them in Germany again, if I understand correctly, because I ordered mine in France back then, as many people probably did.
Thomas Riedel
You could never buy the Quest 1 in Germany, you could buy the Quest one in Germany and then there was a problem with the cartel office and then the Quest two was never offered in Germany and now you can buy it for the first time together with the Quest Pro in Germany. Since the end of last year.
Thorsten Jekel
As you probably also ordered in France and.
Thomas Riedel
I also bought them for 300 € in.
Thorsten Jekel
Cologne. Sometimes it’s not wrong either. So in this area. And then. As much as I’m against this pseudo metaverse event where they say look at it. What I sometimes find helpful is to use it as a bridging technology, something like your agency as an example. It’s very good that they say people, ideally you should come in with glasses, but I certainly have the option of letting you come in again or via the browser. What is your assessment of this bridge issue?
Thomas Riedel
Yes, I think it’s a way of anchoring virtual reality even more in society and also in the professional sector. And then perhaps it will somehow develop into a metaverse network. One way to get there will also be to ensure that it is not isolated. In the past, people used to wear glasses. There was no social media back then, the apps were just on the glasses on their own. It was a completely different world. When you were finished, you took your glasses off again and that was it. And you had absolutely no way of understanding what was going on. What was actually going on in there? And that is now being softened so that these platforms or the games that take place on the glasses are social. They have different types of access via browsers and cell phones. You can stream what’s happening on the headset so that others in the same room can see it. Or I can switch to stream what’s happening on the headset.
Thomas Riedel
And that means what we’re actually seeing is the need to make the whole thing as multi-device, multi-platform as possible in order to get as many network effects in as possible. In other words, my buddy is currently in VR. I want to see what it’s like when I take out my cell phone, open the app and take a quick look around the room and see what he’s doing there. It’s cool with him or I do it briefly. I talk to him via Voice over IP, so I don’t have to put on my glasses first, I can do it on my cell phone. So I think one of the factors that will make immersive media more successful in the future is breaking down these barriers. And then maybe I’ll feel like doing it myself when I see myself. Ah, okay, they’re actually doing cool things. Then I want to be there with glasses. So, and then a certain network effect arises, a suction effect, where I then say okay, now.
Thorsten Jekel
I can’t resist asking this at the end, but I think it’s important. There are people who say Web 3:00 null is meta worst case. I would like to clear up this misunderstanding and say What is Web 3:00 zero? Maybe again What is web one zero, what is web 2:00 zero? What is web three zero? And where is the distinction? And without adding a blockchain hater hour, but at least critically. I know that you’re right to be critical of the topic. I think that helps to clarify things, because in my view it is often inadmissibly mixed up. I often hear that it’s web three zero, but for me it’s something else. So I think it is for you too.
Thomas Riedel
Yes, I also think there are good arguments for separating the two. Web one was the first static Internet. You could call up information from the browser and that was it. Web 2:00 zero was the socializing of the web, so to speak. In other words, there was a lot of communication and you could also create your own content, so to speak. So the whole social area came into it and the web. So it started with forums and basically ended with WhatsApp and Facebook and Twitter and everything else we have. And web three, you have to differentiate between web 3:00 zero and web three. They are two different things. Web three zero was relatively early on. The idea of building a semiotic network with a more decentralized structure. You have to read a bit more about that on Wikipedia, don’t you? I’d have to look that up again to see what the exact definitions are relatively quickly. So it was complicated and quite intellectual, which is why it wasn’t really pursued. And then there weren’t any killer apps that somehow helped the breakthrough.
Thomas Riedel
That’s why it always kind of just floated along. Alongside Web 2:00 zero, without it really being worked on in any major way. Then, over ten years ago, there was a technology that was developed that was essential for the development of this web three narrative, namely blockchain, which is actually much older. But then it practically started to become productive and there was a lot of crypto hype. In other words, over ten years ago, blockchain people, there was the first blockchain, then there was one of the first Bitcoin, which was based on it and then everything started to talk and suddenly you could buy two Bitcoin in the community store in Cologne. Yes, for.
Thorsten Jekel
2,000, but today.
Thomas Riedel
100,000 or so, or that’s pretty blatant.
Thorsten Jekel
Said, although I think it’s more like 60,000 at the moment. But I’m not on top of that.
Speaker 3
Okay.
Thomas Riedel
And so, over the years, an entire scene has emerged from these technologies. Technology was researched, so someone took it when it was publicly available, developed it further and made something else out of it. There were various other blockchain products. This became quite a big deal and then the ideology of the web three emerged from this, i.e. a decentralization of the internet through crypto technologies, and this was mandatory, i.e. through blockchain technologies, so to speak. So why is blockchain always meant when we talk about this? It can mean a bit of Ethereum or something like that, well, there are all sorts. But ultimately it’s always about using this fundamental technology and so on, and this narrative that they’ve created is, so to speak, taking the web three narrative and saying yes, well, you also want to do something with decentralization, that’s what we’re doing, so let’s grab it now. There are now three of us. In other words, they simply took it and at the same time destroyed the original idea of web three zero.
Thomas Riedel
They tried the same thing two years ago, when Mark Zuckerberg had the meta. They said yes, of course you need that. Of course you need crypto technologies for that, because you can’t do it without them. So meta becomes blockchain and what’s behind it? Technically speaking, the worst thing you can do is to do something with blockchain. So it’s practical at the moment.
Thomas Riedel
Blockchain. So you can practically do what is built with a blockchain cheaper, faster, more securely, more sustainably. And there was another aspect that I liked. I’ve already said that. Mining with an alternative technology that we already have. You don’t actually need blockchain technologies. This narrative of decentralization is a false narrative. Let’s talk about this briefly. Digression The internet as infrastructure. Why did it work at all? Because it was decentralized.
Thorsten Jekel
Originally developed by the US as a fail-safe communications network in the event of a nuclear strike? Or is it fake news? Well, that’s how I remember it.
Thomas Riedel
Nope, nope, nope, that’s correct. And even today, if we had a small nuclear war, the Internet would still be there. There may no longer be as many users, but the Internet would still be there because it is theoretically indestructible. And the Internet has worked because it is decentralized. That means you actually have to make it decentralized. But we still have Google and Facebook and Apple. And they are so powerful. That’s true. But it’s not the Internet, it’s the companies that use the Internet. In other words, you have to differentiate between the Internet infrastructure and the Internet economy. These are two different things. And if we have a problem, then it is the lack of regulation of the Internet economy, so to speak, not a lack of structure in any way on the Internet. Because that is there. Anyone can open a server at any time and connect to the Internet. And then you are on the Internet.
Thomas Riedel
That’s no problem at all. Great, just €5 a month. Easy. So really that easy. And that means what we’ve been doing for the last 50 years is letting this Internet economy run free. That has also benefited us. We have also benefited from the fact that we have all the technologies available today, that we have digitalization and so on. That was great, it was really great. But now we’ve come to the point where we have to say that we don’t actually have the problem that no money can be earned on the Internet. It’s actually more the case that more money is being made on the Internet than ever before. We don’t have the problem that you can’t be successful if you’re on the Internet. The most successful companies in the world, the top ten Internet companies, I think there are eight of them, are platforms in companies on the Internet that are making more money than any other company ever before.
Thorsten Jekel
Using the platform.
Thomas Riedel
That means.
Thorsten Jekel
To differentiate things and use the platform between the platform and the business you can put on top.
Thomas Riedel
Correct. Those who use the Internet and build their platform on it. Because platform economy is a term in its own right. But that will probably take three hours of the podcast. That is actually another important aspect. So they’re building on that and it’s been quite good so far. But what we are now learning is that they have an economic dominance that is damaging us. They have an influence on our democratic structures. That is hurting us right now. We have idiots in government, literally proverbial idiots in government. We have children who are destroying Twitter. In other words, such disastrous personalities that you have to say they have no business being there, they can be as rich as they like, it just doesn’t work. And so we have various problems, precisely because we have not regulated the market. In other words, we urgently need to regulate the market. And that is the real problem that needs to be solved. But this, all this, this criticism, the justified criticism of this very large Internet economy has just been used by the scene to say that centralization is a must.
Thomas Riedel
They have, but it’s practically a Trojan horse. So when you get on board with them, what has happened is that one platform is practically being replaced by another. Yes, the problem isn’t solved, it’s shifted. And then they have the power. If that ever happens, we will have another problem. Not only do we practically only have one new ruler, namely the cryptologists, but if they are successful, they will have achieved the same level of indestructibility as the Internet itself due to their technology. And that would be the worst thing that could happen. That means you have to do everything in the world to ensure that crypto under three never succeeds. What does this have to do with a massive Internet of the future? Nothing at all. I haven’t heard myself say a word about it right now because it has so nothing to do with anything.
Thorsten Jekel
Because I say.
Thomas Riedel
Are you saying you need it, so to speak, to achieve interoperability? No, you don’t need it. From a technical point of view, it’s disastrous. The technology that could be used for this, everything that the sociologists offer, can be produced easier, faster, better, cheaper, more sustainably, with alternative technologies. And whenever someone says Come to me in the metaverse, you’re actually just selling a blockchain or a bitcoin, they’re taking the piss.
Thorsten Jekel
Good things also come at the end. Yes, a word of warning, which is always important, i.e. seizing opportunities, but always keeping an eye on the risks. So I don’t think it’s right to go to one extreme and say that we’re blind to the future and so on. Simply to say I’m totally enthusiastic, I’ll do everything I can. On the other hand, to say I’m not doing anything because it’s all the devil’s stuff isn’t right either, but to take an informed middle course and therefore simply approach the topic in a truly educated and intelligent way. And that’s why I’m incredibly grateful that you took the time to do this interview. Because, dear listeners, you will agree with me. It’s rare to meet someone who is so knowledgeable in this area and who is so bullshit bingo free, simply passing on his knowledge and experience. So I would like to say many, many thanks to you, dear Thomas. The question is, if people want even more from you as a speaker, as an expert on the subject of meters, what about wide areas where else can you be reached?
Thorsten Jekel
What is the best way for people to reach you?
Thomas Riedel
So of course via Link, because I’m on there as Thomas Riedel, so it’s relatively easy to find me. You can also find me on every other social media platform, sometimes under the name Droit Boy, because that’s how my first Android blog got its name. And of course there are also numerous contact options under Börse Podcast where you can write to me. You can book me. As a cinema, as a consultant, as a podcaster. Anything your heart desires. Always no bullshit. A lot of journalism and a lot of and.
Thorsten Jekel
Really a lot of substance in a very likeable and professional form. I’ve already seen him live in Berlin. So the next time you’re in Berlin, you’re always good with me. I look forward to seeing you again digitally and in person and say Thank you very much and good luck for the future, dear Thomas. Thank you very much.
Thomas Riedel
Thank you very much! It was nice to be there.
Also available in: Deutsch
