Introduction
Nice to have you with us again for another episode of Digital 4 Productivity. Don’t be put off by the background noise, it’ll be gone in a minute. I’m on the road. This episode once again features an exciting interview, in this case with Thomas Lang, the owner of Meisterkanzlei. Those of you who are DATEV tax consultants should definitely know him. Among other things, he talks about how OneNote can be used wonderfully in addition to the DMS in the tax office. You can look forward to an exciting and inspiring interview with Thomas Lang from Meisterkanzlei.
Thomas Lang
Welcome to the podcast Meisterkanzlei, the podcast for all tax consultants who want to develop their business. Today I have invited an incredibly great guest to the podcast and he has taken the time, I was just thinking about what you can say in the preliminary discussion. I think that many listeners will also know him, namely the well-known iPad for Productivity Coach, our Thorsten Jekel. Hello Mr. Jekel.
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you very much for the invitation, Mr. Lang.
Thomas Lang
Very, very gladly. I think our listeners are of course aware of the iPad issue, that we also work a lot with iPads in our law firm. And when it comes to iPads, and I would also say tablets in general, then I think it’s you, your expertise, your podcast, which I can only recommend, to be honest, where we always get something out of it for ourselves and our law firm. I can only recommend it. And for the listeners who don’t know you yet, perhaps you could just introduce yourself briefly, because it sounds more like a CV, perhaps it’s not meant to be, but simply so that we can get to know you, what you do and what environment you work in.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, very, very gladly. Thorsten Jekel is my name and I started my career in 1988 at the computer pioneer Heinz Nixdorff, working on two topics: sales and IT and how you can use one for the other. And I did the whole thing from sales assistant to sales manager and through various positions to managing director of a medium-sized company until 2010. When I spent the last ten years of my career as an employee and managing director there from 2000 to 2010, I also got to know DATEV for the first time, which is when DATEV was introduced. And we were lucky that we had such a smart consultant back then that my colleagues in Nuremberg said: “The system can do that, I say: “Yes, because of course you can grumble all day about DATEV, which doesn’t work, or you can find smart solutions. And finding smart solutions and helping people to use technology is what I’ve been doing since 2010 as a consultant, trainer and speaker. And I have two main focuses: One is the topic of using iPads more productively at Volksbanken and Raiffeisenbanken, also at tax firms and in, I’ll say it now, normal companies like Coca-Cola, for example. And one focus is Office 365, where there are also many intersections in this area.
Thorsten Jekel
So these are my topics and I always say two things are important: first switch on the brain, then the technology. I think we are very, very close in our thinking in that respect. And the second thing is to say: “Just use technology, because sometimes we can do more than we think.
Thomas Lang
That is correct. It also means a keyword or a statement that I wrote down. I first wrote down “turn on your head, but “brain meets brain”. It’s completely true, of course. What good is the best technology if I can’t handle it or if I digitize processes, or as it is always so quickly called, processes that were already bad before. If I then digitize the processes, I haven’t gained anything.
Thorsten Jekel
They then get worse, experience shows that they even do. That’s where many people say that digitization is the savior. And to tie in with your point, absolutely my experience, like the former boss of Telefonica, who is quoted again and again, to say that a shitty process is digitized is a really shitty process, which is then even worse. And that’s also the case with personal organization, where you are also very strong in the area of OneNote. And if someone isn’t properly organized beforehand As I said, if they are well organized, they exponentially increase the chaos and if they are well organized, they can be even better organized. I think we are pretty much in agreement in our thinking.
Thomas Lang
In any case, that’s exactly how I see it. You simply have to ask yourself: Are the processes themselves right? And use digitalization to your advantage. For me, it’s always important to really pick out the tools that suit you and not, as I often have the feeling, simply hear “Digitalization, I have to do it now. You set up a Facebook page, a website and then, when you look at when the last post was, the last update, somewhere in 2007, then you know that you’re not really living it.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, absolutely right. And I’m also far from saying that you have to do everything digitally just because it can be done digitally. For example, I am someone who says that a paperless office is not a goal in itself. What I do have is a relatively large amount of paper, because I often print things out and destroy them afterwards that I may have only printed out once in the past. But I have a paper-poor office because I say that if I have a piece of paper that I file somewhere, then I always have the challenge of only having access to it in one place. And if my assistant then also has to access it, or a member of staff in the tax office, then it becomes a problem. Because many people always say: “Oh, you have to make digital notes, he has to make a digital calendar, where I say: “If I’m a lone fighter, for example, I don’t have to do that at all. Sometimes you even slow down in the first step.
Thomas Lang
It depends on the environment. I’m completely with you on that and at the beginning I also had the attitude: “I have to digitize everything, I also have to achieve the clients digitally, in quotation marks. And everyone, staying with DATEV, has to get into digital accounting in the case of companies online. And I have to say, I’ve had a rethink in recent months or maybe even years, where I’ve realized, okay, I just have to look behind it, which person, which person is behind it? And if I now, for example, this has nothing to do with age, digitalization, but I have a 65-year-old entrepreneur who is retiring in a year or two, whether I then have to say again, okay, he’s having a hard time with, what’s the right mouse button, then to say he has to do business online so that he can stay with us as a client. In the meantime, I’ve also said goodbye to just really sucking it up, it just has to fit. And that’s simply a case of first brain activation, then technology.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely.
Thomas Lang
That’s right, yes. Mr. Jekl, do you also know about Office 365 or, more recently, Microsoft 365, which has also become a second hobbyhorse, so to speak? Which tools do you think are appropriate for tax firms? What can you use? What should be used? What do you think is an effective way to work with Microsoft 365?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, of course you always have to differentiate to a certain extent, and always say, what can Microsoft do, what can DATEV do? And what can DATEV do and to what extent? You also have to differentiate again. Because if we are talking about the classic DATEV ASP, then I can use Office 365 or Microsoft 365, as it is now called, but DATEV does not yet support synchronization via the Microsoft Cloud. So against this background, you always have to look at where it makes sense? If I work via my own server or via a partner ASP, where someone says: “Okay, I’ll allow this Office 365 synchronization, then one of the biggest levers for me, especially in communication with external parties, is the topic of Teams. So I’m a big fan of that. But you don’t have to start so high up, I think your approach with OneNote is really smart. And just as you offer your online course and have gained a lot of experience here, I think OneNote is totally brilliant, because I can then say, as you do very, very well, that I have a notebook for each client and can then transfer the whole thing into the DMS as part of the monthly closing process, for example, because the challenge is always a slightly longer answer to a short question: The challenge of such systems, be it OneNote, Teams, Microsoft 365 or others, is always that it should ideally not be an island, but in the tax firm I always find it totally important that if you have DMS, DMS should be the leading system where all the documentation is in there.
Thorsten Jekel
If you use EU, the whole thing should run in EU, because the danger is, of course, if you don’t transfer things quickly into the DMS, into EU, that you have what I always call a kind of subledger accounting and then perhaps the partner has everything perfectly in his OneNote, but then an employee gets a call and doesn’t have the information in DATEV, which in my view should always be the leading system. So that’s why I’m a big fan of saying, okay, ideally you also use smart services from Microsoft and from marketplace partners, which ideally also have a DATEV connection interface, and then ideally you dock into them and then sometimes you have to use a bit, I’ll say it now, pragmatic solutions where DATEV is available. I say, sometimes there are a few things that have to be solved differently, where DATEV sometimes says, for example, that I can’t access network drives in the ASP world, then, if you listen to the first answer, it’s correct that it doesn’t work. But if you then look a little deeper with a system partner in the law firm, there are also ways to do this.
Thorsten Jekel
So I think you always have to make sure that, ideally, you find solutions that don’t make the iPad an island, but that you can access the information you have in the office as quickly as possible and, on the other hand, that you can also quickly put data back into the system, just as you rightly preach.
Thomas Lang
Yes, you try to implement it in a way that works effectively for you. The reason why I got involved with OneNote was also because the DATEV DMS was reaching its limits, especially when it came to integrating the digital pen. And for me, the digital pen is actually the most powerful tool, let’s call it that. And I really wanted to have it integrated into my DATEV environment, so I went on a search and came up with all these tools from Microsoft and I’m really happy with them afterwards because, due to the coronavirus pandemic, it’s perhaps now developing into an even better tool or tools than it was before and they’re really stepping on the gas, if I can put it that way. Absolutely, yes. Every week you somehow get the feeling that a new function has been integrated into Teams. They’re doing really good things. And the ASP stuff is of course also a challenge, I’ll call it that now. I think DATEV is already aware of this. It’s already being piloted, we’ve noticed from the DATEV side that DATEV ASP offices are now also being piloted with Microsoft 365.
Thomas Lang
That remains to be seen. I hope and also think that DATEV should not close its mind to this, because Microsoft is simply a standard software manufacturer that is already on the market with Word and Excel anyway and will always remain so, I hope. And we simply say to ourselves: “How can I get an interface? But the interface is DMS.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely. And now, of course, you also have to understand DATEV. If you look, until February, Office 365 was only offered internationally as a Europe-hosted version. T-Systems once offered a German version three or four years ago, something like that, but it was then discontinued due to a lack of demand, as Office 365 data could already be stored on German servers at the time. And since the end of February, it’s now possible again to decide if you want to host a new user in Germany. And then you are at the data center in Frankfurt. It was already GDPR-compliant before, but it was not AO-compliant to store client data outside of Germany. And that’s why it’s fair to say that it’s also understandable that DATEV didn’t release this cloud before, let’s say, storage locations outside of Germany. And we’ve all known DATEV for a relatively long time now. We know it’s a tanker. In other words, it moves a little slower than a speedboat from time to time, but it’s not closed to topics. And I also think the marketplace concept is a very intelligent one, in that you simply dock on third-party solutions.
Thorsten Jekel
So I think that’s why we are of the same opinion. And then you just have to see where you can already work with it under certain circumstances. And there are also some providers of partner ASPs that already offer Office 365 in synchronization. And on your own server, you’re a bit more flexible anyway, if necessary already today.
Thomas Lang
That is correct. These are also the questions we often receive. The first question is: Which server solution do you have? In-house, partner ASP or DATEV ASP? Whereby you also have to say that you can use OneNote despite the DATEV ASP. If I have the online version, I still have access via Explorer or Chrome. It doesn’t matter what browser I use. So the online version also works in the ASP environment. Of course, the desktop version is even more charming, I would say, with a bit more functions, but it would of course be possible in principle.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, another great addition. That’s why many of your listeners don’t even think about saying: “Right, you can also work with the browser version. What I think is a bit of a shame with Microsoft is that the big version, the big desktop version, has been discontinued, so they’re saying that there’s only the app version left, which they promise to upgrade. And I think it’s a bit of a shame, simply because if you look at it in practice, I think the Evernote web clipper is significantly better than the OneNote one, especially on the iPad, because when you push things into OneNote via the web clipper on the iPad, nothing sensible comes out of it. So Microsoft still has a bit of work to do there, but the way they’ve developed it in their logic, it makes total sense for them to say: “So, and the browser-based version is often enough on the PC. So that’s why I’m a big fan of working with solutions that you can access anywhere on the web, even if you have no way of accessing anything.
Thorsten Jekel
Web is usually always possible.
Thomas Lang
That’s true and it is also synchronized extremely quickly, logically because that is the first point of contact. So it’s always fascinating how quickly the synchronization works. You feel like a little David Copperfield. You write something on the iPad and it’s already there on the PC. It’s always fascinating, even though I’ve been working with it for a few years now, but it’s a great story and fascinating at the same time. It’s an exciting question that comes up again and again. I’d say it’s one of the classic questions that we receive, including the GDPR. And you mentioned that very briefly. What is your position on GDPR in relation to Microsoft 365?
Thorsten Jekel
So it was already possible to use Microsoft 365 in compliance with the GDPR when it was still hosted in Europe. So what I always find so nice is this, I always call it, rushing ahead when it comes to data protection. So where I always hear: “You can’t do it outside of Germany, it’s not GDPR-compliant. Where I say: “Guys, it’s called GDPR, General Data Protection Rule, it’s a European law. Ultimately, the basic idea was to raise German data protection to a European level. So against the background that everything that is in the EU is already, by definition of the logic of this law, GDPR-compliant. This was already the case, for example, when a consultant friend of mine provided complete support to the Ergo Group on the topic of GDPR implementation and introduction. And they already gave a clear go-ahead at the time, when it was only about Europe: The GDPR case can be used. So that’s the first thing I always say: “People, please don’t build the crash barriers across the road, but please build them on the left and right of the road. Because what I often notice is that data protection in Germany is data protection to some extent, I always call it that, where people simply say: “No, we can’t because of data protection.
Thorsten Jekel
So there’s more to it than meets the eye and now against the background of saying: “Okay, I have the option of using Office 365 or Microsoft 365 to work with German servers. Then I have also fulfilled the requirements of the General Data Protection Regulation, because this is not a GDPR issue, but an AO issue, namely that data may not normally be stored outside of German territory. So there’s more to it than meets the eye. In the past, it was possible to conclude an ADV with Microsoft, and the same is now possible with Germany. So you can use it in compliance with the GDPR and ultimately, I always hear: “Wah, cloud is bad. I say cloud is called cloud because it steals data.
Thomas Lang
And how you write it, yes.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, exactly. And ultimately, DATEV is also a cloud. So that means you’re also on a cloud service provider that has its data centers in Germany and the data center standards that Microsoft has don’t deviate there either. So against this background, I always say, shouldn’t you be paranoid or sensitive? I also assume, as you mentioned earlier, Mr. Lang, that DATEV will certainly integrate Office 365 more and more, because realistically, Microsoft still offers both Office 365 and Office 365. I say that after a certain transition period, there will only be one Microsoft 365. So it’s a question of time and ultimately, what I think is very good is that all these collaboration options are simply being added. And I can’t just leave a client on Pro Check or on other data systems as a rule, but I can certainly work with clients via Microsoft 365 solutions.
Thomas Lang
That is correct. So I think it’s also well known that the whole license issue is changing to monthly rentals, let’s say, and that these purchase options will be a thing of the past at some point. So something will have to change in that respect as well. But it remains exciting and I think everyone has to find a way that suits them. Absolutely. Also on the subject of data protection. Of course, you always hear: “Yes, I don’t want that. To be honest, I often get the impression that it’s a kind of excuse to say: “Yes, it’s not possible because … I generally find it difficult to make such a statement because I would like to find solutions and not see problems. But everyone has to decide that for themselves from my point of view and you confirm that. It’s definitely possible to make it GDPR-compliant and to get to grips with Microsoft 365 and introduce it into a law firm.
Thorsten Jekel
And I always find that very funny, it’s just always this topic that people say: “This is all not GDPR and compliant and so on, but everyone is somehow diligently on Facebook and on WhatsApp, where I say: “So, guys, that’s where the topic somehow stops at your own sense of comfort. Or when it comes to data security, the bottleneck in this whole issue of data security is 95% people, so But if I then say, okay, a four-digit pin on the iPhone, on the iPad is perhaps a bit weak, yes, but it’s so hard to remember and what do I know about it. So the bottleneck is usually the human factor. We’re all always happy to scold the NSE, but we don’t want to do without our WhatsApp.
Thomas Lang
That’s the difficulty. I think that’s inconsistent, yes. If I were to say that I want to be 100% safe, which in my view is probably not possible anyway, then I shouldn’t have a cell phone in any meeting, then I shouldn’t have smart TVs either, but you don’t think about that, you just complain about Microsoft, for whatever reason. But as I said, I don’t want to make any assumptions about whether this is right or wrong. Everyone has to form their own opinion.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, absolutely.
Thomas Lang
What I found exciting before, what you said about Microsoft Teams, we also use that, mainly internal communication now, where externally we are just, I say, piloting with clients, creating groups and doing something. There are also great functions, such as having your own e-mail address for each group and so on. So these are also great features from my point of view. How would you now use Microsoft Teams externally with client relationships?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, so what I find very, very nice about Teams is that you can simply use these modular tabs, which you can set up as tabs, to say: “What do we want to do together? And in my opinion, the biggest benefit is that it can significantly reduce the volume of emails. Or even the topic of WhatsApp communication, because in every team I have a general channel and then I have the opportunity to chat on a channel-specific basis. And the great thing about that is that I simply don’t have to deal with the whole mess of WhatsApp, which is always very scary when it comes to WhatsApp and data protection and Facebook and so on. I even have them with me on a project basis. In other words, email communication has been significantly reduced. I have the option of using the Files area to share files in a standardized way and the good thing about the synchronization function in Teams, which used to be a bit hidden, which is now also directly in Teams, where I no longer have to go via the SharePoint page, everyone can also say: “Man, the tax consultant can say, I’ll integrate this into my file manager and the client can also pull it into his file manager.
Thorsten Jekel
And then it’s just cool, because I say, the moment I move something into a directory, everyone who is in the team automatically has it there too. And I can then see it via the Finder for Mac users, via File Explorer for Windows users or via the Teams interface. And what’s also interesting is that Teams also offers the integration of third-party services. And you have to look at Planner, for example, a Kanban board that Microsoft also offers. I always find this very good for onboarding, for example, where you can say that you really have a Kanban board where you can say what still needs to be done and what has already been done. That’s a great way to do onboarding. My experience is that the Planner is sometimes just a bit cumbersome and that’s why I’m a big fan of Meistertask, which is also hosted in Frankfurt. And what I really like in teams is that I can say I have a tab called Meistertask, which I can fully integrate into teams. So I can also use solutions that are perhaps already available in the law firm, which I can integrate to a large extent.
Thorsten Jekel
And it’s important that you understand the concept and that you don’t just throw it at the client, just like in the law firm. It does require a bit of explanation. And if you look at the topic of chat alone, there’s no chat per channel or per team, there’s a quick chat and then there’s this WhatsApp chaos, as I always call it. So it’s important to think a bit about the structure for every tool and also for Teams, whereby Teams has the big advantage for me that it already offers a basic structure. And in contrast to Slack, for example, which is the big competitor after Teams has always stretched itself and has now overtaken Teams, there was always more of a chaotic chat-WhatsApp approach. So it’s a bit more structured in Teams and clients can then communicate via a browser or, if they can install it, via Teams or the link. I think it’s really good for onboarding that you say, for transferring files, but I’m … So when it comes to documents, I would always prefer to use the company online system or something like Kanzleiland as a supplement, which my tax advisor also uses.
Thorsten Jekel
I think specialized solutions for transferring documents are much better. But if you have communication beyond that, I don’t know how you use it, but I think Teams can be very helpful.
Thomas Lang
Yes, I find it totally exciting. That’s why I laughed beforehand, because we have completely similar ways of thinking, also in terms of the programs and tools, we’re totally similar. Totally exciting. And we use it in the same way. I wouldn’t say that we send the entire bookkeeping back and forth via teams. That would be nonsense between us, but between us it’s a good thing to say if we listen to a few people.
Thorsten Jekel
No, but I see it the same way.
Thomas Lang
That makes no sense. But if I say to myself, okay, there will be individual documents to submit, yes okay, that could be a possibility again. I quickly take a photo, send it via Teams, whatever. I could imagine that, but direct bookkeeping is, in my opinion, the better alternative, whether it’s a company online or whatever you use.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, I absolutely think so. And that’s always the case, I sometimes get a bit dazzled, I think, especially with these nice shiny internet services. They’re usually super nice, super sexy and so on. And when I look at the DATEV scan module, for example, which is currently only available under Windows, it’s really ugly. So it’s not pretty. But I don’t know of any scanning software that allows me to scan so quickly. It’s simply incredibly efficient in terms of the solution for me as a client, for example. And so that’s an example for me where I say that DATEV isn’t always the best solution, but it ensures that you can often work well and optimally. And then there are always third-party options where you can simply use smart solutions that you then have in the Dataf interface, which you then also pull in via the Dataf connection point. In the meantime, I no longer use the scan module or hardly use the scan module from DATEV, because I use a service like “Get my invoices”, for example, to pull in the majority of my invoices directly via the DATEV connection station.
Thorsten Jekel
So it’s important to think about it, just as you said earlier, Mr. Lang, what are useful tools that are ideally available either in the DATEV world or docked as well as possible, especially via the DATEV connection point? Because otherwise it will of course be difficult, especially on the tax consultant side, because I know the tax consultant side much better than you do, but I could imagine that documents in teams are not as easy to decipher as when you get them in via Unternehmen online.
Thomas Lang
One hundred percent, yes. That would only be an interim solution, to say that you can then upload it again to Unternehmen online, because I also really see Unternehmen online as the data document platform, that you see that you can store these documents there with all the advantages and disadvantages and as far as I can see at Atef, that’s exactly where the strategic direction should go, to pursue this platform strategy, I’ll call it now, with Unternehmen online. And that definitely makes sense. It’s also exciting because I also wrote down a question about how you communicate with your tax advisor or exchange receipts. I found that really exciting, because I would have been a bit afraid that you simply know a lot more digitally, logically, or certainly even, than the consultant as such. But I think we’ve explained it a bit about Kanzleeland. But you I can add to that now.
Thorsten Jekel
Incidentally, I also changed my tax advisor in January 2019, perhaps also as an impulse, and I didn’t change him because he gave me bad tax advice, but I changed him because he was too analog for me. And when I look at it, I still had an insane amount of manual work as part of my own bookkeeping and I don’t have the nerve for that, because for me it’s not a value-adding activity where I say it’s just annoying stuff. Perhaps one or two clients can understand that. And now I’m someone who studied business administration, I did an MBA, I trained as an accountant. So I actually quite enjoy doing bookkeeping. I also know a bit about it. So from that point of view, it’s not a distant topic for me. So if you have tradespeople as customers somewhere, it’s even worse for them. And I changed it because in the DATEV app, for example, I couldn’t see my BWAS in the Controlling-Report-Mobile for ages because my tax advisor couldn’t get it together to provide me with the smart block-ins, to give me the rights, and always sent me the BWAS on paper.
Thorsten Jekel
And I’m usually out with customers three to five days a week during non-corona times. So now it’s easier because I do a lot online and then I’m also in the office again, but otherwise I’m not often. So the impulse that I would like to give is to say that being able to support the client digitally is a key criterion for a good tax advisor today. And I go one step further. I say: an Indian can book today and a PC tomorrow. I no longer need a tax consultant. And there are also these studies that say, depending on which one you read, the most blatant ones say that 99% of all tax advisors will be superfluous in five to ten years. And I would always like to add to that by saying that the tax advisors who do what they do today will certainly become partly redundant. Those who continue to develop and say: “Okay, I’m no longer the one who books and somehow charges nine euros for the salary, but I’m the one who helps the client to optimize their processes, to make the whole thing leaner. I can charge completely different rates, I create value and I’m successful in the long term.
Thorsten Jekel
And when I look, for example, my tax advisor gave me a tip with “Get my invoices”, which you probably know, the system, which was just totally brilliant for me, because I typically have an eight-page Mastercard statement, because I travel a lot and have a lot of online services. And with “Get my invoices”, which was a tip from my tax advisor, I have connected my online portals and then all the Amazon invoices, all the Deutsche Bahn, Lufthansa, EasyJet and whatever they are all called and my online portals with “C-Bill” automatically go over to DATEV. And I still have an intermediate point: I still have Fast Bill as my invoicing system. And I have two things with Fast Bill: Firstly, I have an interface to my CRM system, which I also find important, because if I have a debtor who then creates an order, I don’t have to re-enter the master data, I simply transfer it to my “Fast Bill. And in my CRM system I can see the customer’s sales, I can see the customer’s open items. So when someone calls my office, for example, the master record pops up straight away and I can see immediately where any open items are.
Thorsten Jekel
So I’m such an automation freak that I say I want to have “One single source of truth, one data record, which is then synchronized between the systems if necessary. And I do that with Fast Bill and Fast Bill has the great advantage on the credit side that my “Get my invoice” data goes into Fast Bill and my tax consultant can use it to break down credit card transactions into individual items, which DATEV can’t do yet. They can indeed break down bank transactions into individual items, but not yet those. And that’s why I always encourage people to say: “Wow, this – and this is a great example – can make life easier for you and your clients. And it now takes me half an hour a month to do the monthly closing, whereas it took me half a day before. And that’s valuable for me.
Thomas Lang
It’s exciting to see because, in my view, you unite two sides: On the one hand, the entrepreneur, the client, but we can also understand the tax consultant to a certain extent, because they also have a certain level of technical expertise and therefore often provide support in law firms. That’s really exciting to see. I see it 100% the same way, to say that the tax consultant will not disappear from my point of view, the activity will change. And if I don’t change now, I will definitely have an issue in a few years’ time. When that might be, I don’t know. Corona has perhaps delayed it a little now too, I think you have to see it that way, because for many people the added value of a physical advisor is now coming across again and I’m not going to the hotline and having someone from India on the phone who can’t help me, which is Corona instant help, but it will definitely change and the processes have already changed, if I’m honest. In the past, you used to have a physical bank statement in front of you and you had to type it in one-to-one and transfer it so that it could be digitized again. And that’s not value creation in that sense.
Thomas Lang
That is already a thing of the past and will become even more so, especially if all the invoices are perhaps only issued online and so on. But the decisive factor will be that someone has to monitor these processes or document what is being done. And in the past, the tax auditor would take the document folder and check to see if it had been booked correctly to the relevant accounts. And in future, they will probably be more likely to check whether the processes are documented so that there are no errors. So the work will change drastically and, as a consultant, you have to be prepared for this, not only for yourself, but also for your team, logically, to say that the traditional accountant, however you define them, will definitely have to change.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, absolutely. And perhaps a supplementary impulse to all those who say: “Oh come on, I’m about to quit. I’m going to sell my law firm.” A law firm that has not set the course for digitalization is certainly much more difficult to sell, even to the point of being unsaleable, than one that has already set the digital course. So from my point of view, every law firm has to deal with this, even if I want to hand it over and sell it, because otherwise it will be unsaleable at some point.
Thomas Lang
People used to say that there were different formulas, that turnover was one or 1.2. I think we’re miles away from that now. Of course, it depends on which law firm you have, where it’s located, but for me today it’s not the local location that’s decisive, but rather the digitization rate or this know-how that’s available there, that sometimes you can’t sell the law firm. And then it’s bad for the people who say, this is my retirement provision and it can no longer be realized. That’s really bitter. And that’s why it’s simply an issue that affects everyone and should be addressed by everyone. Absolutely.
Thorsten Jekel
As you rightly said earlier, Mr. You always have to look, of course: Does it make sense to force a – I’m not even saying age-related, but also in terms of the processes – a craftsman who throws his stuff into a shoebox and says: “I want to send you the receipts somehow. Does it make sense to force him to go online with the company? Or do I say: “Come on, I’ll offer you the service of saying: “Come on, I’ll scan it all for you and you have nothing to do with it? Because, let me tell you, even with me, when I said at the beginning: “You know what? It’s not necessarily easier for me in the first step with the company online. It was also a bit more work for me in the first step, but if you then really exploit the potential completely and then say: “Now take a look, there are one or two marketplace solutions where you can do it better, or also on the subject of scanning, for example. I now have a Fujitsu Scan Snaps here, which I’ve always had, but it’s a double-sided feed scanner with a touch display.
Thorsten Jekel
The devices are now so smart that I can say that I scan relatively little via the DATEV upload app, because I say that if I’ve been on the road for a week, then I’ve practically made myself a loose-leaf binder where I say, once for the cash register, once for MasterCard. These are the things that I typically have outside, once again for my savings bank account when I’ve paid with a debit card. And then I have subdivided them again by individual or stapled. And then I have a soft button on my soft touch display. I press on it and then, for example, it says “Individual cash register” and then I press on it and it is automatically saved in a subdirectory without me having to do anything on the PC and my mobile receipt upload is set so that the receipts that are scanned in are automatically sent to my tax advisor. And things like that are also possible today with DATEV and I can see that many of the existing options are simply not being used because many tax advisors don’t even have them on their screens. And that’s why I say to the tax advisors: “Get yourself as fit as possible in terms of the possibilities and then pass them on to your clients.
Thomas Lang
Okay. Yes, I think that’s the biggest challenge, always staying up to date and not just staying up to date as the head of a law firm, but also taking your team with you. I think that’s one of the biggest challenges and that’s why I’d like to ask another question or two about that: How do you think you can be successful – and this is actually the decisive factor – successful? Let’s just start with a tablet. How can I introduce a tablet into a law firm and take my team with me? What is your experience of what brings the most profit?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, so I’ll start with the tablet and I always say “tablet and I always say “tablet is not tablet, because I always hear that it doesn’t really matter which tablet, because ultimately I can access everything remotely and ultimately it doesn’t matter which piece of hardware I have. I can always access it online. Then I always say: “Okay, in theory yes. I’ve been working in the field for 30 years. I spend more time outside with customers than inside. And I’ll give you a very specific example: one of my customers, Union Investment in Frankfurt’s banking district, has the best coverage, now even with 5G. There is a Voda transmitter mast on the Union Investment building. I’m inside with the customer and I’m offline because this transmission mast beams beautifully over this building. Now it has a WLAN, but it won’t let me access it as an external user. In other words, a very classic situation that I often experience in Germany: We’re not always online. So I’m not always online on the train, I’m not always online on the plane, I’m not always online with clients. And with this in mind, it’s important for me, especially when it comes to tablets, that you always have a solution that also works offline and that ideally, like OneNote, for example, which you also use very intelligently.
Thorsten Jekel
Onenote, if I have it on the iPad, synchronizes in the background the moment I have an Internet connection and the moment I’m offline, I have the latest status available offline. That means I can make wonderful notes in OneNote with the client, regardless of whether I have internet or not. And that makes sense. That’s why I always say that offline capability is important. And if you then look at offline capability, then the apps that are available for this are also important. And if I look, there are three types of tablet in this area. There’s iOS, i.e. the iPads, there’s Android and there’s Windows. And with Windows, of course, they always have the huge advantage that they can say: “I have all the Windows applications, only Windows has a market share of less than 1% in Windows Mobile. So there are hardly any decent apps for it. This means that when you start to really want to work with smart apps, you very quickly reach the limits of the Microsoft world. And a very specific example: I had a tax consultant who had just attended the first seminar with a Surface and he was still teasing: “Well, if you ever hear iPad big, it’ll be a PC.
Thorsten Jekel
And the next time, he has an iPad Pro with him. And I said: “Why do you just have an iPad Pro with you now? Because last time you gave me a big lecture about how it’s all just games and you work with Windows. And then he says: “I was in a client meeting and had a BWA open. The client couldn’t read it and wanted to enlarge it with two fingers on the Surface. Then he somehow hit three menu items at the same time, the thing crashed and so on. And on the iPad, anyone can just use two fingers to quickly enlarge the thing. So that means sometimes small, practical things like that, where I say the iPad is much better suited in terms of apps. And when I look at Android, in the smartphone sector, the price-performance ratio is much better. For 80 euros, you could get a great cell phone that covers most of the functionalities. And at the top end, they have much better performance for the money than iOS. In the tablet sector, it’s just that the typical Android user is not prepared to spend money on apps. The comments always say “rip-off if there’s any money involved.
Thorsten Jekel
So I say: “Congratulations on the fact that you also offer consulting without a fee. I don’t think it’s indecent that software developers also want money. It’s only because Android users don’t want to pay money that many of the great apps are only available for iOS, because 90% of the profits in the industry are in iOS and that includes the profits of the software developers, because they get a large part of it, they have 70% of the profits, the developers have – to say, 90% of the profits are in the tablet area on iOS. So where do the good developers go? They just go there. And Google also left the market almost a year ago. So there are no more Google tablets directly. So that’s why I recommend, if a tablet, I recommend iPad and then in combination with a PC. So there is a very specific tip, which I’m sure you know. There is an application called Duett Display. And with Duett Display, I can even say that I use my iPad as a second screen for a laptop when I’m out and about and I recommend having my laptop, which I can connect to two or three screens in the office with a docking station. When I’m out and about, I just pull it out.
Thorsten Jekel
Even if you have an ASP, I always recommend having a local Office installation on it so that you can also work offline. And then, if I’m with a client and I need a second screen, I can attach my iPad to it, mirror or extend my screen there and then, if I need an app, I can use an iPad-only app. So for me at the moment it’s a combination of a PC, which you always need in the data field, and an iPad. And so the Nicar law firm, for example. I don’t know if you happen to know Conundius Nicar?
Thomas Lang
You know them for sure.
Thorsten Jekel
Exactly, so we know each other from time to time. So I’m there once or twice a year and we regularly exchange ideas. For example, they say that they usually only go to clients with their iPad Pros and can access them online if necessary, or if they know they need more, they take a laptop with them and have it as a second screen. You need to introduce the right system in the tablet area, and in my experience, the iPad is currently the issue in tax firms and that may change, but that’s how it is at the moment. I’m a big fan of combining this with a duet display with the topic of the PC. And if you look at the tax office, for me it’s now for someone who sits in the office all day and doesn’t go out, they don’t need an iPad. So I have to say quite honestly: work there with the workstation. The only thing is if you perhaps say in the meeting room: “I want something else where I can take notes with a pen, as you said at the beginning, then of course a tablet in the meeting room is certainly quite good.
Thorsten Jekel
Otherwise, I think it’s a good substitute for a printout. That’s why I always say you should use the big iPad. We don’t need to print out much anymore. And it’s a good replacement for a notepad, because I can say that I have things so that I can transfer them straight to the DMS. And that also comes back to the initial question: I think it’s important that you don’t say: “Well, an iPad somehow replaces a PC now, but that it’s a good addition and that you then gradually look at: “What are the functions that make sense and then simply introduce them step by step and ideally in such a way that you take a look in the office. Usually there are one or two people who are perhaps a little more IT-savvy and you say: “Man, why don’t you let them test and try it out, and then it’s much, much better if a colleague says to a colleague: “You, I’ve tried it out, it works really well, than if you as the owner of the law firm try to go through it with a crowbar.
Thomas Lang
So there’s a lot of input from your side too. Sure, it’s great, because there’s a lot in there that I would actually endorse. The only thing that I see differently is the issue of working papers, because we really do all our working papers via iPad and OneNote, that we say that our working papers are really paperless as far as that is concerned. Then I can’t avoid saying that even if someone isn’t at the client’s office with the iPad or doesn’t come out, they still have the iPad in front of them and all the working papers can be displayed in digital form, because I just take a screenshot, put it in my OneNote notebook on the PC and I’m with you there, it’s always needed on the PC or on the stand, whatever you want to call it, especially in connection with the Atev. Then it synchronizes to the iPad, to the OneNote from the iPad. Then I have my classic pen function and can have my interaction, just like I used to walk to the printer, pick up the paper, mark it, then go back to the printer and scan it in. We have now shortened this process and are trying to take advantage of it.
Thomas Lang
Which was also an exciting realization for me, simply to really recognize, as you rightly say from my point of view, that paper still has or still has its justification, because there are simply certain things that you like to print out or sometimes something where you simply don’t have the haptics. So I have to be honest, this tactile feeling is missing somewhere. The intrinsic value, you buy a property somewhere in Mallorca, I don’t know, and then you just get a PDF document. It’s different to having a bound blue piece of paper at the notary’s office. There’s something about that. Yes, of course. And one client was … That was also a great insight for me, the balance sheet meeting. Yes, annual financial statements, yes, I send it as a PDF. I didn’t even want to start with a stick. I then send it to them or I make it available to them online at the company. Then he said: “No, I want a printed version. So I thought to myself, I really have to ask him specifically why he wants a printed version. And then it just came out that he said he would sit on the couch in the evening with a good glass of red wine and look through his work from last year.
Thomas Lang
And that’s not how I perceived the balance sheet report, as a valuable piece, to say: “This is my company, I created it. And you definitely can’t present that with a bit of a whisper, I’ll call it now, than to say, I’ll leaf through my balance sheet report. And that was an exciting realization, I must say, that I came to, to say, yes, I’m now thinking more about saying, let this balance sheet presentation become more of an experience, that you, because you know yourself, when you unpack an Apple product, what a cool emotional story it is, totally well thought out with a slide, it all works, it all fits, so I say that we tax consultants could also discuss our balance sheet, make it more of an experience and perhaps package the balance sheet report differently in some way, in quotation marks. So I think there are a lot of opportunities here, too, where we should take advantage of the interplay between digitalization and analogue.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely. I always call it “experienced advice”, because what is relevant is what the client perceives, because very few clients can judge their performance in any way. So whether they receive good or bad advice, I can ultimately only see to a certain extent, I’ll say, in my wallet at the next tax audit, whether I can make up for a lot.
Thomas Lang
If at all, exactly.
Thorsten Jekel
Exactly, if at all. In other words, the question: What do I base it on? And then I’m going to tie it to saying: How does this person help me to optimize my processes? That is definitely tangible. I also base it on the question: “How professional does something like this look and how does it suit me? And that’s how I do it and usually one, usually another better. So when I’m on vacation, for example, I now have my books with me via the Scoob app on my iPad mini, because I don’t feel like taking up half of my suitcase and having lots of books with me. When I’m lying in a deckchair on our roof terrace at home, I love a hardback book. I’m similar to the balance sheet report in that I say the feel of a hardcover book is much nicer. In other words, I’m a long way from saying you have to do it digitally. The important thing is to think about it, make a conscious decision and talk about it with the client. And that can also vary from client to client.
Thomas Lang
Yes, that’s exactly the point. Ultimately, the crucial question is always: “What’s in it for me? And you have to ask yourself the question: “What does the client get out of it? from his point of view: “What do I get out of it as a client? And if I then always come up with some new tool: “Now we’re putting electronic banks online, now we’re making companies online, now we’re only holding balance sheet meetings with teams, video conferences. I always have to ask myself: “How does my counterpart perceive this? And our clients in particular have a tax advisor, because they can’t make any professional judgments and logically want to know what is being done. And they can’t assess whether the 6B reserve has been calculated correctly? Has the investment deduction been set up correctly? They rely on us to a certain extent and that’s how it should be. And I also think that 99% of all colleagues only boil with water. So you can’t be better or worse. But where I can make a difference is of course in my overall perception, because that’s where it starts: How do I get in at the door? Am I greeted in a friendly manner? Is the door opened for me? Or is someone already looking at me with a somewhat negative face?
Thomas Lang
Or am I offered something fresher to drink? As colleagues often say, the setting is more important than the content. And simply this perception of what I can judge. I can judge, as I said, if I want to charge nicely, I’ll be called right back. He can judge that, I can judge that. I can’t judge the content. And that’s why I believe that we as law firm owners need to deal more with this issue: What can a client perceive and how do I want to be perceived? And then make a conscious decision.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely. And in both the online and offline world, in both. They belong together.
Thomas Lang
I have to add that and the crucial question is always: How does the client perceive me? Just because I think he perceives me that way. Doesn’t mean that he actually does. And everyone is different and you have to be much more responsive to the other person. And for me, the basic principle is to simply see the person and not to think that this is a photovoltaic system that is coming to a balance sheet meeting, but that this is a person made of skin and hair and they have needs and to simply respond to them and also to ask about the emotional side, not simply because you want to watch them, but simply to be able to understand the person better. And that’s where digital tools come in, of course. We have also mapped our CRM in OneNote with a kind of personal level, I’ll call it. And if I’m sitting at the breakfast table and I still have a physical newspaper, I admit it, yes, and I see that there’s an article about one of our clients, then I take a photo with my iPhone and add it directly to the notebook under personal level.
Thomas Lang
And then when I’m at a financial meeting, I immediately have this information there again without any extra effort and can say: “Congratulations, by the way, you won the competition for the best sponsorship award in Bavaria, I have no idea. It’s a completely different way to start a conversation than if I always say: “Yes, and how was the journey? Or “What’s the weather like? Absolutely.
Thorsten Jekel
And there, no matter how, and this is exactly what I accompany on the field service organization, where I say to myself, a sales representative who, in case of doubt, has a well-organized card index box, is better than someone who has the latest technology, but does not store such information. And then you always have to look. Ideally, of course, if you work with the team, then it becomes absolutely more important that you no longer have a card index box, but a digital system, because then everyone in the team who looks after this client can access this information.
Thomas Lang
And above all, fully automated and that it costs time and effort. For me, it was always the case that I took notes with the client, maybe even on my tablet at the beginning, but I always had to give the information to the team. And if I want to work collaboratively, if I want to work effectively, I now have other tools, of course, but we have opted for OneNote, where I have this automated synchronization in the background and everyone in the team knows that I was at the balance sheet meeting with Mr Müller, for example, and then they look in my notebook or in the client’s notebook and see my transcript. I don’t have to actively do anything. I don’t have to say: “Yes, when can I pass on the information? Or “I can’t, she’s working from home today” or “She’s working part-time” or “She’s on vacation” or “She’s sick, the lady who’s working on this.” Instead, everyone can get the information when it suits them, at a time that suits them. And that’s what I find so charming, this synchronization in the background without actually having to do anything and not this stupid “I need a video template and I write my appointment in Outlook and then I get the reminder again and and and.
Thomas Lang
So I think you can find a more charming digital solution these days.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely, yes. And you always have to look at what DATEV can ideally do. And where DATEV doesn’t yet offer the option, then it’s possible to simply dock third-party solutions, just like you do. And then simply, I think it’s also very smart to say, to include OneNote as a OneNote file in the DMS and as a PDF file, because I can even navigate in the PDF file myself in the DMS. So do you also have very smart implementation recommendations for when or how you work?
Thomas Lang
That makes me happy. Thank you very much, yes. When you realize that we don’t have anything either. It didn’t fall to us either. We’ve also tested and gained experience over the years, and of course we’re happy to take that further, logically. That’s the point, that’s the concept, that everyone has to make the same mistakes or face the same challenges, just like you say. I have experience, I show you the best way from my point of view and can then take appropriate shortcuts on various topics. And that is also one of the biggest points. And I also hope that DATEV will somehow find an interface, an automated transfer of OneNote files or from Microsoft 365 into the DMS, because that is one of the most frequent questions we get, to say, when in OneNote, when in DMS? And there is also a clear recommendation, regardless of whether it’s Teams or OneNote, you need guidelines, even if it sounds stupid, to simply say what goes in when, where and for what do I use what? Because for us, Mr. Jekl, and for me perhaps it’s all clear to you, but for the team it’s not so clear.
Thomas Lang
And you just have to sit down and really, as stupid as it sounds, simply define rules.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely.
Thomas Lang
Exactly. Relaxing. Of course, it will be exciting, and that’s also the issue with Team, as we were just there before, to successfully integrate it, as I said. Now you’ve already said, okay, if a tablet, then the iPad Pro. The big one, I’m completely with you. A4, you have a clear block replacement, I’ll call it that, if I also want to use it as a working paper. But what happens if you say, “My team has never had anything to do with iPads or Microsoft 365 products? From your point of view, what would be the ideal approach, implementation, if I now plan to introduce OneNote in the law firm?
Thorsten Jekel
The important thing is to start step by step, to really pick a small island and say: “Well, now I’m just going to do something small, both in terms of the functions and the employees. One of the biggest mistakes is to say that you want too much at once and with everyone at the same time. And that’s why you just have to look at … And do something different for each office. For one, it could be onboarding. For another, it could be: “Let’s see if we can organize our weekly meeting via a Kanban board instead of email and Word files, for example, and do the whole thing on the iPad, whether with Meistertask or Planner. And what I always see is that in every law firm there is actually at least one employee who says: “Wow, I fancy doing that, I might even have an idea. Experience has shown that this is always the best seed, that you say you’ll use what you have, because I don’t know of any tax firm where there isn’t someone who hasn’t already thought about it themselves. And then you motivate these employees who say: “Wow, I’ve got an idea somehow and my boss sees me and he lets me do a little bit, and you also have the effect that you don’t just go “boss, he has no idea anyway” afterwards, but that from colleague to colleague is always different from boss to employee.
Thomas Lang
Yes, that’s also our recommendation when we implement OneNote and iPads in law firms, that you simply say: “Okay, first the head of the law firm, the boss, in quotation marks, should deal with the topic so that he has a certain basic idea. I don’t see the head of the law firm as the project manager for the introduction, but then relatively promptly, two or three people will of course also depend on the law firm, in terms of size, to do a pilot phase like this next time, to simply take those with an affinity for digital on board, to also have the enthusiasm, to feel it. I think that works quite well. And then when two or three people in the office are walking around with an iPad. You know that as well as I do, it has an effect on colleagues, who then say: “What have you got there? And then he gets going and says: “Hey, I want one too, and then people usually approach the law firm advisor themselves. And then the roll-out of iPad and OneNote or whatever you actually want to introduce, it makes sense to choose this approach, a few selected teams first, where you know that they are also in a positive mood and can then carry the whole thing positively into the law firm.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, in any case. And that’s always the question, and I can absolutely support what you’re saying, to say that the owner of the law firm is the one who has to have a basic idea. So not along the lines of “Oh yes, the employee will do it or something. So it has to be controlled, because I don’t think the digitalization of the law firm has to be implemented by the law firm owner. I’m with you on that, but the driving force is always the boss to get the right employees on board and then implement it accordingly. I think that’s how it works, because this topic of digital natives, where it’s always said that they’re driving digital change, where I say that they can type WhatsApp messages twice as fast as older people, but that doesn’t mean that they’re particularly positive in the digital world.
Thomas Lang
Yes, that opens up, but does not necessarily have to be the case. That’s correct, yes. And in my view, digitalization has nothing to do with age, not at all. Because there are people who just want to do it, they do it. It’s more a mindset issue or an attitude issue, how you deal with it is crucial. And I’m completely with you on that, it has to come from the chancellor’s leadership. No matter how hierarchical you are, it has to come from the top. If I have someone in the team who says: “Yes, let’s push ahead with digital accounting and I’ll fight it with everything I’ve got, then I won’t implement it, at least not successfully. And I’ll probably even lose the team members, because they won’t have the chance to drive things forward. And that’s rather difficult, but it always has to be driven to a certain extent by the chancellor’s management or simply forced. Not to the last detail at all, but simply a certain basic motivation, basic intuition is part of it in my view. Yes, Jekyll, perhaps still. Now let’s assume that I have introduced a tablet, perhaps ideally the iPad, which I see in the same way because, I have to be honest, it’s also a marketing tool for me, both for clients and also for future team members or perhaps existing team members, because I have an iPad as a work tool.
Thomas Lang
That does carry some weight. I didn’t see or realize it that way at first, but when people say: “You have an iPad? What? That’s already a perception you have. And above all, if you want to be perceived as a digital law firm, it’s different when me and my team, no matter where they come to sign or where they show up, the iPad is at the table or at the presentation of the financial statements on site. It’s different from when I arrive with my suitcase containing three commuting folders and say: “Now we want to introduce companies online and we are the partner who wants to bring you successfully into the digital world. It’s a bit yes, let’s put it this way, it doesn’t necessarily always emphasize that and that’s why you have to think about which path you want to take and that’s where this has definitely helped us personally a lot. Yes, Jekyll, which apps, which tools, just say three, where you say it’s the must-have for tax firms. What would you recommend? I know you have a cool list, I’ll say, of apps, as basic equipment, as you call it. But if these were the best three or the most effective three tools apps that you have, what would they be from your point of view?
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, so I’ll start in the DATEV field with the DATEV app itself, because I can use the Controlling Report mobile with it and I always find it amazing how few people use the Controlling Report mobile as a component of an experienced consultancy. That’s why I always say: “People, use the DATEV app with the Controlling Report mobile. Then, when I look at it, the next app is the PDF Expert, because with the PDF Expert I have the option of having PDF, Word, Excel, i.e. all documents, types of documents, directly, which I have on a network drive, even synchronized with it. And you always have to look at the extent to which you … You will certainly edit more documents via OneNote. If someone says they work document-oriented, then I would take a look at PDF-Expert, because it also offers automatic synchronization in both directions. And if it’s just a matter of a white sheet of paper. I’m always like: “I need a white sheet of paper, then I think “Thorts is totally brilliant, just like the idea. A simple whiteboard, infinitely large. In other words, it’s a bit like the overhead scroll that you can push around, the infinitely large one, because I open it up, I can draw on it straight away, so it’s very natural.
Thorsten Jekel
And they asked for three applications, since the first one was a DATEV application, I’ll add another one. You need the HD calculator, which I think is a really, really great calculator, because you don’t have a calculator on the iPad, you need an extra calculator anyway, and the HD calculator has a paper strip that you can also continue to use. And I think that’s a very clever conversion of the old calculator with the paper strip into the digital world.
Thomas Lang
Above all, I was also able to get to know this tool at your seminar, and when you switch on the sound, you still have the audio effect of the typing strip from before.
Thorsten Jekel
Exactly, if that’s what you like, you’re always welcome.
Thomas Lang
Exactly, if that’s what you want. You then have the old world combined with the new, so to speak. So it’s a really clever thing. And that’s another thing, I wasn’t even aware of it in terms of percentage, if I’m honest, what you said before, that of course I have a multifunctional device with an iPad or a tablet. From my point of view, I have a scanner, at least on a small scale, thanks to the photo function. I also have a dictation machine with me, then I have a digital pad with me, with pens, and of course I have the option of downloading or downloading an incredible amount of cool stuff via the App Store, sounds so youthful now, to get some cool features that are constantly evolving. Whether it’s loan calculators or income tax calculators, which I didn’t necessarily get from DATEV because they were simply more charming and stylish, even with the option to export or AirDrop them directly to the client. That’s what fascinates me so much about Apple, is this interaction, whether it’s with the Apple TV, where we use it to mark in the BWA during balance sheet meetings or in the financial statements or to brainstorm together via Apple TV, or to use AirDrop functions from one to the other.
Thomas Lang
Or, because you mentioned the topic of Duett Display earlier, if you, at least for me, if I have my MacBook, I can of course use the classic screen-splitting function above to automatically place my iPad next to it and then I have a second screen, so to speak, MacBook and iPad, I don’t need the iPad or Duett Display app. I probably need it for Windows. Exactly, that’s clear. Exactly, but there are some really cool things that are constantly being developed.
Thorsten Jekel
I think it’s good too. With BFD Online, I have all my, let’s say, BFD materials, even if I want to, always with me in an app. So I’d say there are things that are really, really practical and I don’t have to carry as much with me and I always have access to the things I need.
Thomas Lang
Yes, it’s really nice. I think we could go on discussing and exchanging ideas for hours. Maybe we should just continue the podcast and do a second episode on other topics. I’ve also seen that you naturally also work with certain mind mapping tools or the Kanban topic, Meistertask or Planner or it doesn’t matter or Asana or whatever the listeners are using, because this is of course also a further development, to say project management, how do I work together with apps or software solutions in projects? So it would be incredibly nice if you could take the time to record a podcast together again.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, very, very much so, dear Mr. Lang.
Thomas Lang
You couldn’t say anything else now, could you?
Thorsten Jekel
No, I’m always a big fan of saying, “In the first stage, let’s look at what else I can implement relatively close to the existing processes” and then in the second step, and Kanban is a great example of this for me, say: “Okay, this is a great way to solve a weekly department meeting via a board, for example, it’s just a different way of thinking than solving something like that with OneNote. Or, for example, if you’re talking about forms, the first step is of course to scan them in and complete them. The next step could be to use Microsoft Forms, which is also part of Microsoft 365. In other words, there is always one more step that you can take or even say, if you digitize, whether you want to look at the additional options and perhaps even skip a small step.
Thomas Lang
Yes, the crucial question really is, I think you have to make a bit of a roadmap, also because there are so many great ways to position yourself digitally. But simply saying: What would I like to implement? What are my goals and what is realistic to implement by when? And not to fall into the trap of wanting to do everything at once, because then you’re demotivated and you take all the added value out of the tools because the team might not go along with you because you’re disappointed yourself. Just make a little mind map or a roadmap in that case and say: “What do I want to do and when? For example, I know a colleague who organizes his law firm using to-do lists, saying: “Who has to do what and when. Also exciting. So I say there are a lot of things that colleagues come up with, but there are many things that I think can be implemented.
Thorsten Jekel
You can call it wonderful. The important thing is to find the system that suits you, your firm and your clients and then stick to it very consistently.
Thomas Lang
Yes, that’s exactly the exciting phase, sticking with it consistently, implementing it. And yes, that’s also the challenge, I think, because new ideas and new opportunities are constantly emerging left and right and you always have to find the right ones, because you always have the impression that you don’t know how you’re doing, that you’re missing something somewhere because there’s another app somewhere in the world or another piece of software that you don’t even know about. And I think it’s a good idea to say: “No, now’s the time, or even: “Which blogs do I subscribe to? Which podcasts do I listen to? That you simply say: “Okay, I’ll define a certain number for myself and not “I’ll subscribe to 50 and then not do any at all, but rather five and listen to them consistently from time to time. That’s how I see it, at least that’s how I do it and I think I’m doing quite well with it.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely.
Thomas Lang
Okay, Mr. Jekl, thank you very, very much for taking the time. I noticed one more little thing, and that is, perhaps I can also tell you a little something that you may not yet know. The fact is that Start-up now has a Pleo credit card, a corporate credit card. And it has an interface where you can read the individual account transactions into Start-up. At least, I think I saw and read that somewhere yesterday or the day before yesterday. Yes, thank you very much. Yes, with pleasure. Not an issue at all. On the contrary, thank you for taking the time and giving us so much input with your expertise. It’s really enriching and I can definitely say that you’ve inspired me a lot to go in the direction we’re currently heading. I’ve been following your blog, as you wrote, yes, OneNote or Evernote. I read that a few years ago, when I decided to go in the direction of digital working papers. So thank you very much for the impulses you give in the podcast or in the blog posts. Thank you very much.
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you and with pleasure.
Thomas Lang
Gladly, yes. Okay, then all that remains for us to say is: Thank you very much to the listeners of this podcast. A bit overlong today, but when we have such a special, great guest, I think it’s totally justified to just go overboard, if you like. But a lot of great ideas from my point of view and, to be honest, Mr. Jekel, I’m looking forward to recording another podcast and I don’t think we’ll run out of topics. It’s totally exciting. And at this point, as I said, thank you and thank you to the listeners. And I can only recommend subscribing to Mr. Jekel’s podcast. It’s really iPad for Productivity and I think you’ve also announced that you’ll be bringing out a new podcast with Microsoft for Productivity. Perhaps a final word on this from your side.
Thorsten Jekel
Exactly, so there’s always something to listen to. So for those who say they are concerned with the topic of how to work more productively, iPad for Productivity is the first port of call and more to follow.
Thomas Lang
Okay, okay. Yes, okay. Then we also included the advertising block, which is really great, I have to be honest, and you always get great impulses from it. I think it’s really sensational. Okay, then thank you very much. Thank you to the listeners and if you have any questions, if you want to address any topics, just write them directly in or send us an e-mail to the Meisterkanzlei. Or I’m sure I’ll also be thinking directly of Mr. Jeckel himself if there are any questions on his side, so that we can simply make progress together, work effectively, work productively, as you do. So thank you and see you next time, Thomas Lang. And you get the last word, Mr. Jeckel.
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you very much and all the best, good luck to you. Bye bye.
Thomas Lang
Thank you very much. Bye.
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