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Introduction
Nice to have you with us again for another episode of Digital 4 Productivity. And as you know, my personal mission is to develop myself and others. And someone who has a very similar vision is Jens Voigt, who has created an extremely exciting format with his Learn to Learn congress. It’s all about how you can learn to learn. I think this is one of the most important skills for me, even in the age of artificial intelligence.
Fogh There is always a discussion about the extent to which artificial intelligence will replace us. And I believe that artificial intelligence will replace very few people, but many activities. And that makes it all the more important to continue developing in this area. And of course, I’m also pragmatic and realistic enough to say that you might not be able to retrain a forklift truck driver to become a software engineer, but experience shows that you can do more than you think. We humans can learn more than we sometimes think. Of course you have to get off the sofa, but the smart thing is that you don’t even have to leave the house thanks to online congresses such as the Learn to Learn Congress. I will also be making a contribution to this alongside other highly esteemed colleagues such as Markus Hofmann, where we will take a look at the whole topic of artificial intelligence.
How can you learn the most important things to be fit in dealing with AI? I think one of the most important things for the future is competence. We conducted an exciting interview on this and without any further ado, as the Americans like to say, let’s jump straight in.
Jens Voigt
Hello my dears. With me is Thorsten Jeke. Thorsten will introduce himself again in a moment. I can only tell you this much. Today, for example, it’s all about modern topics, how AI can help us to learn, how we can use technology to prepare for exams and all that sort of thing. And I’m really pleased that we have an expert here who has already written several books about this. But come on, Thorsten, I think you know yourself best. Why don’t you introduce yourself?
Thorsten Jekel
Thank you very much, dear Jens. And I think that before I introduce myself, the first question is always: Do I like the person who is here? I hope I’ve already answered that question positively. The second question is always: Is the topic relevant? And I don’t know about you. Technology should make our lives easier and I usually experience the opposite, that technology makes our lives more difficult. So you probably know what Windows and a U-Bot have in common, right? Jens, do you know that?
Jens Voigt
Going under? Do you sometimes stand in water up to your feet?
Thorsten Jekel
It’s close. What do Windows and U-Bot have in common? It’s quite clear. As soon as you open the first window, the problems start. That’s clear. And my mission is to change the whole thing so that technology doesn’t make your life harder, but that technology makes your life easier. And I combine this with my personal mission, which has been very stable for decades, namely to develop myself and other people. And that’s why I’m delighted to be here with you. And on the subject of computers and IT: I am just as grateful to my father for millions of things as I am to my mother. One of the things I’m very grateful to both of them for is that they gave me a C64 for Christmas when I was 14, which I wanted. And that’s when my enthusiasm for computers began. And funnily enough, I had already read my first book about AI. There was already a book, AI on the C64. So AI hasn’t just been around since ChatGPT. It’s been around even longer than me. The whole subject has been around as a discipline since 1843. And I’m concerned with how to get AI from everyone’s lips into everyone’s hands. In other words, not just talking about what many people are doing, but simply using AI – and it’s great for that – as a learning coach. That’s the idea and I’m delighted about our exchange today, Jens.
Jens Voigt
Yes, I’m definitely very excited about that. I think we’ve already answered this question in Congress, in the Gumpel and Held, that AI can actually help us, that it’s not this ominous dark cloud that hovers over us and then strikes at some point and then detaches us from ourselves as humanity and says: Okay, step aside. We’ll take over now. But at the moment it’s actually the case that, curiously enough, AI is being understood more quickly by young people and children than by adults, especially teachers. They actually have a problem now and are saying: Okay, we have to follow suit. And that is one of the contributions we are making today, for example, where we say: Okay, we have to take away their fear.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, and above all, you’ve touched on very important points. And when my wife and I introduce ourselves together somewhere, we always introduce ourselves as Professor Dr. Jekyll and husband My wife is a professor at the Technical University in Berlin and she also has the subject that she naturally supervises many Bachelor’s and many Master’s theses. And now there are two types of teachers. There are those who say that AI is banned and the students, because they just use it to stop thinking for themselves and write using AI. And there are other teachers, including my wife, for example, who even encourage students to use AI, but intelligently, namely as a sparring partner, as a learning coach. And that makes a lot of sense. And I always compare AI, or rather I always like to twist the term AI to mean artificial intelligence. I always turn it around and say AI is IC, an intelligent colleague. And now, if I have a human being, I can also say: Okay, please write my term paper for me, or I can say: Can I please discuss this topic with you? Can you please ask me some exam questions?
Thorsten Jekel
Why don’t you pretend to be my teacher and test me? And that’s the kind of approach where I also … I don’t want to be too missionary, but it makes me extremely sad when teachers stop this topic of AI and say: No, you’re not allowed to use it, because when the students leave school, they will have to work with AI, otherwise they won’t stand a chance in their professional environment. And that’s why I think it’s important to let students learn to deal with the topic responsibly. Just like I always say that if I have small children, for example, then I should also make sure that I don’t leave a knife lying around at home because it’s dangerous. But if the children are a bit older, then it might be a good idea to introduce them to the topic of healthy food and “preparation and cooking with a knife. And that’s a bit like, I always compare AI with a knife. And when I look at dear Roland Bus, a good friend of mine, when I called him from time to time, he recently retired as a chief detective inspector, when I called him, he often said: “You, can I call you back?
Thorsten Jekel
I’m standing in front of a corpse right now. And he just said, that was The Dark Side of His Life and The Bright Side of His Life, that he was an excellent cook. And at some point I asked him: Tell me, how did you get into cooking as a chief detective or chief inspector? And he said: I’ve seen so much improper use of knives in my job all the time. So I said: there’s a more sensible way to use them. And that’s the analogy for me, saying that a knife can be used to kill people. And you were absolutely right to say that AI should not be used without reflection. When used responsibly, it’s a really great learning assistant, a coach, which I can use if I can’t necessarily get my sparring partner, my tutor, in the middle of the night or at the weekend, then I can simply build myself a tutor using AI as a supplement. So it’s great for that.
Jens Voigt
You said that having a sparring partner is a great thing, because I always say, for example: Okay, when you’re learning your mind maps now, it’s very important that you talk about them later. So of course the best thing is to have your friend with you, your girlfriend, to listen to you and give your presentation. In theory, you can read the lecture to yourself, but it has to be active. And if no one is there, then talk to your pillow or your teddy bear. But in that case you can say: Here, pay attention. Please listen to me now and ask me any questions you have that haven’t been explained yet.
Thorsten Jekel
Absolutely. And you’ve already mentioned two or three great points. For example, when I buy a book, which I do relatively regularly, I buy it because I say that reading endangers stupidity. And what I then like to do is that I now buy the books twice. I do this by going to bookshops – I love bookshops because I discover great books there – and getting great reading recommendations from bookshop employees. And what I often do is, when I get a great book, I buy the paper book, give it to someone else as a gift, who I inspire with it, and I buy the e-book again for myself. In this way, I support the bookseller and make someone happy. And most people tend to like a tactile book more than a digital one. Why do I like a digital book? I download this book as a PDF file and upload it to ChatGPT. The paid version allows me to build my own chatbots, my own GPTs. And before I read a book, for example, I upload the book and then I ask this bot: Tell me, what are the ten most important ideas from the book?
Thorsten Jekel
So not with the novel, but if I have a textbook now, we’re on the subject of learning here, to say: What are the essential statements from the book, to say: What questions should I ask myself when I do this? And to pick up on your point about talking to the pillow: I can now even talk to this bot using the app that’s available for popular smartphones. In other words, I talk to the bot about this book and I’m a big fan of speed reading. And one idea of speed reading is that I say: I’m going to read the book first. What do I actually want to get out of this book? What do I want to get out of it? Then I take a completely different approach and scan it first to get an overview. Then I also have the idea of summarizing things. I’m a big fan of mind mapping, in other words making mind maps. And now you can use AI to say: I’m discussing this book, or I can even ask questions and maybe I can talk to authors who may no longer be alive.
Thorsten Jekel
When I was at school, for example, I always asked myself: Did this Schiller or this Goethe, did they think of the shit we’re interpreting here? So I once really said I’d like to meet Goethe or Schiller and ask them: Tell me, The Robbers and what we’ve somehow managed to cram in here in the King’s Interpretation. And now I can just say: Okay, I can either chat with someone or, if you haven’t seen it yet, I can totally recommend it to you, there’s a great podcast interview where Sasha Lovo talks to Albert Einstein. In other words, you can even clone the voices of people who no longer exist and who are famous, you can now even do that with Eleven Labs, you can do something like that, that you can pack all the content into it. And it’s quite different if I have a book, I read it by heart or perhaps I haven’t yet understood the theory of relativity. I did my A-levels in physics, among other things. So for me, once I’ve understood it, I don’t have to learn it again.
Thorsten Jekel
But I can remember that one or the other did need a corner. So now, in my school days, I couldn’t say: I’ll ask Albert Einstein, let’s explain this again. So now I can say: Albert Einstein, tell me, I haven’t really understood this topic of relativity tourism yet. Can you explain it to a five-year-old in simple terms? And then you can ask questions. And these are the kinds of things where I say … And I always think it’s such a shame that school … So for me, the main task of school is to give young people the fun of learning and developing. All the content is, I’d say, obsolete two years after school is over anyway. And I mean, I have a 27-year-old daughter, so I know the subject myself. Fortunately, we’ve managed it with her, and I’ll say this in a teasing way, that she still has a desire for further development despite school. Fortunately, there are many teachers who are pleasant exceptions and I suspect that those who are watching here right now are precisely the exceptions who encourage the pupils, who don’t drive the fun out of it, because young children enjoy discovering, learning and so on.
Thorsten Jekel
And I always find it so sad when they say in fifth or sixth grade: Oh, learning is stupid. And I’m such a development junkie. I haven’t watched TV for twelve years because I watch YouTube where I watch video courses and great formats like you do here. And with AI, you can … You have even more options where, for example, if I have books, as I said, I can prepare for exams … It’s now the case that I can upload all the teaching materials I have for an exam to a chatbot as a PDF file. Then I can use the Federal Agency for Civic Education, for example … There are great materials, fortunately there still are, I got them for free when I was doing my A-levels. Then there are lots of links on the internet. When I did my A-levels, there was no internet. I still had to run to the library. In other words, I still had to go behind me and dig out books. Today, there are so many more options and you can see how much I love it and how enthusiastic I am about it.
Thorsten Jekel
And that’s the appeal I always make to people: please use it intelligently, because I always have two mottos. One is to use your brain first, then technology. And you don’t have to do every single thing in digital just because it’s digital. So every now and then, like in this interview, I have a few key words here that I’ve written down on paper. So if I don’t need them afterwards, it’s great because I can always look at them again in between. And then there’s always the second saying “Just use technology. So use things like AI and the The nice thing is that … I don’t know if this is so well known here. There is Fobiz. Does Fobiz mean anything to you? Fobiz. F-o-b-i-z-z. Fobiz is a website where teachers can find really, really great AI tools, courses and even AI systems that are protected. You can have teaching materials prepared there. Fobiz is a really great resource that I can highly recommend. There are great things there that are even specialized specifically for teachers.
Thorsten Jekel
So that’s the tip for the teachers here. For the parents and for those who want to develop themselves, I think ChatGPT is great, where I can build my own GPTs. I have to pay €20 a month for it, but to be honest, a tutor is more expensive than €20 a month, so that’s money well saved. And what I can also highly recommend is Perplexity. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. It’s called Perplexity because we often use ChatGPT incorrectly as a Google replacement for researching things. And Perplexity is a mixture of Google and ChatGPT, because with Google you always have the problem that you enter a question, you get two million search results and most of the time you don’t find what you need. With ChatGPT you get an answer, but you don’t know if it’s true, you don’t have the sources, you don’t have anywhere else to go. And Perplexity is the perfect combination, because you ask a question, you get exactly one very well-structured answer, you get three or four main sources and then another 20 sources and then you even get suggestions as to which further questions might be interesting.
Thorsten Jekel
So that means, if you fuck yourself into a topic, if you’re maybe writing a paper, a term paper, a bachelor thesis, so perplexity, great. So I always say that ChatGPT is great, but I also say that I can hammer a screw into a wall, but it’s not the most elegant method. And that’s why I always say that a well-chosen and well-stocked toolbox is a good idea. It shouldn’t be overflowing either, i.e. 1000 tools, then you won’t find anything. And you know the saying Tool with a fool is still a fool. So you have to know what you’re doing with it. And in the age of AI, there’s also the extension. Do you know it?
Jens Voigt
No.
Thorsten Jekel
“a fool with artificial intelligence makes the disaster faster. In other words, it doesn’t necessarily always make things better, including the whole issue of digitalization. And I’m sure you’ll agree with me on that. Digitalization just for the sake of digitalization, even in the educational sector, makes no sense at all. So if it is used intelligently, then it makes sense. And sometimes, there are also studies that show that if you write learning content by hand, you memorize it in a completely different way. So you always have to look at where you use analog methods and where you use digital methods. And I’m always a big fan of not saying that AI replaces everything else. It’s the same, I’m also someone who is very much involved with the iPad. When people say that iPads in the classroom are the solution, I always say: I’d rather have an excellent teacher who works with a blackboard and an overhead projector than a pedagogical flatpipe who has an iPad. That’s much more useful for the pupils. So the bottleneck is not the technology. If, of course, a great teacher also uses technology and uses your example with the mind maps.
Thorsten Jekel
I can make a mind map on paper. I always have the challenge: what if I need or want to add something in between? And this topic is growing. Then I always reached the limits of these mind maps, where I said: Shit, nothing fits in there now. That’s why I like them so digital and I can also add links. And if I then maybe have a study group where we work on it with several people, that becomes difficult on paper. That’s why I really, really like Mindmeister, for example, where I say you can work with it in a distributed way. So it’s always like this, where I say: people, digitalization yes, but please think about it and please don’t stop it, but say that when the students leave school, we have to make them fit for working life. And that includes things like AI. That’s why I’m also a big opponent of any data protection officer saying: Teams, you can’t do that in schools anymore. Where I say: people, when you enter the world of work, you have to work with teams and you better know it before you look at your boss on your first day at work and say: teams?
Thorsten Jekel
I don’t need it. I don’t know it. So it’s not a good start.
Jens Voigt
That was The same with Corona, that you then said: Okay, now we have to save ourselves somehow, and then everyone tried something and then it became regular: He’s not allowed to do that, he’s not allowed to do that, that, that, that.
Thorsten Jekel
That’s always the case, where I say I’m also a friend of data protection, so don’t get me wrong. In Germany, we’re just very good at spelling it with a T instead of a D. So then it’s often data protection and then the crash barrier is often simply placed across the road instead of left and right. And these are the kinds of things where I say I’m even a bit more restrictive in some cases in such projects. Let me give you a simple example. You say: No, we’re not allowed to do teams at school because of data protection. But now they might have iPads and the pupils are allowed to install software and apps on these iPads themselves. Where I say: Are you stupid? That is, make teams, but for me iPads belong centrally. That means that everything you need for teaching is set up centrally. And it’s clearly separated so that you can’t leak any data and that you can’t catch anything from the private area. So I’m sometimes even more restrictive in that respect, where I say that I nail down the iPads even more than they were there. I often just take it, there’s a crash barrier across the road and I just take it on one side and on the other side I put a second crash barrier, because if I’m on the highway at 580 and I’m on the left-hand lane, then I’m very, very glad that there are two crash barriers in the middle again, so that someone doesn’t get the idea and say: Oh, I’ll quickly overtake on the left.
Thorsten Jekel
I hope nobody comes. So then you don’t want to bang 360 things against each other. And that’s exactly the issue where I say that data protection and data security make total sense. Unfortunately, it’s sometimes more dogmatic than pragmatic, just like with the topic of AI, where I say, of course you have to be sensitive. Of course you have to be careful about what data you put out there and where. But with the paid version of ChatGPT, for example, you can already say today: Please don’t train the data so that it is not returned to OpenAI. Quite independently of the question of how critical data protection relevance is the learning content that I have at school? I rarely have any personal or, let’s say, confidential information there.
Jens Voigt
So how do you actually get this ChatGPT, this payment thing? Well, I use it too, that’s the cost option, but this €20, I haven’t noticed it yet.
Thorsten Jekel
The good news is that the 4-O version of ChatGPT has been available for about three weeks now. O does not stand for O-O, but for Omni, which means that there is a bit more in terms of sound and image and communication processing has become significantly faster. And as part of this, these GPTs, because there are already a lot of them in a GPT store, for example. They can even be used in the free version and the great 4.0 model used to only be available in the paid version. 4.0 can also be used free of charge. You have a bit of a limitation in that you have a, let’s say, once a certain number of requests tell you, at some point now you have to put in money, but the limit is very generous and that’s the crucial difference. You can use GPTs, but you can’t build your own GPTs. And what I think is so great about the learning coach is that you can actually … I would build a GPT for every school subject. And then I say: I have my history GPT, I have my English GPT, my German GPT. And then I always put the things in for a school year accordingly.
Thorsten Jekel
In extreme cases, I could even say … Well, for example, when I did the tour, I remember I was challenged by my parents, because I’ve always been someone who has always said: There has to be a reasonable balance between effort and income. And I said very early on: I’m doing my A-levels, and the only thing people will be interested in afterwards is my A-level grade. In other words, I had an average grade of 2.8 in year 11 and that was already good. So I brought home several blue letters in my school career because I always said: The main thing is not to fail, and sometimes it was very close. I managed that and then I told myself I wanted a Bavarian Abitur with an A in front of the decimal point. In year 11 I had an average grade of 2.8 and in year 12 I was at 1.9 and I did my Abitur with 1.8 in Bavaria. In other words, someone should have told me afterwards what I’d learned: The last two years were really tough because I lacked a lot of the basics. And now I’m coming back to the origin of my thought: if you perhaps build a history bot over the years, that I say: there you go, and I can upload up to 20 files.
Thorsten Jekel
So, if I say I have one PDF file per school year, where I have my transcript in it, and then I go into the Abitur exam, then I can say: Man, check me again, so that I say I might even need some basics with it. Or I have another question about a certain topic, then I can ask them again: “Tell me, what was that again? “caputsch, what was that again? And tell me one more thing about it. Or I can just do it, and when we meet at the congress in September, I won’t just talk about it, I’ll show it live. In other words, I’ll show it on the systems. In other words, you will be able to see how it actually works. And ChatGPT 5.0 will probably, or even almost certainly, already be available. Perhaps there will even be the option of building the GPT site yourself in the free version. You can also book it on a monthly basis and if you don’t need it, you can take it out again. But that’s why building GPTs as a learning sparring partner is just awesome shit.
Thorsten Jekel
Sorry for saying that, but I’m just fascinated by it. I also use it myself.
Jens Voigt
That’s why I think it’s so great that they adapt accordingly. You mentioned Albert Einstein earlier and he always said that if you can’t explain it so that your twelve-year-old brother understands it, then you haven’t understood it yourself. And that’s exactly how it is. Of course, I also know many pupils from my teaching career who studied very hard, but yes, they learned it, but sometimes they didn’t understand it. And if you then asked about it in the exam, it usually only came out and said: Of course that’s a bit stupid. You could have worked that out beforehand Exactly. But of course you can do that really well with a sparring partner like that.
Thorsten Jekel
Super. And my wife, for example, does that very actively. She does a lot of oral exams, because you can see that in the oral exam: Have you understood this topic? Where she encourages the students to It’s also right to say: People, if you don’t understand it … So my wife, for example, is here … There is an IMA-CIMA, controlling training from the USA, the world leader. It’s the gold standard for controllers. My wife is a professor of controlling and there are huge scripts and slides and exam questions. And my wife then built a bot for the students and said: So, here you have all the exam questions, all the materials and so on. Please prepare yourselves with the bot. That means you can try out all the exam questions and so on. So in this area, you can really do everything in advance and it’s easier than you think in this area. So that’s why I always say, don’t ban it, but make gentle use of the technology. And maybe a supplementary tip: we used to live in Bavaria, I used to watch Telekolleg on Bayern 3. I don’t know, I might know one or two people.
Thorsten Jekel
Then I watched physics and math and so on. Today we have YouTube. And what’s great, for example, there’s Mister Wissen to go, which I’m sure everyone knows. So if not, Mister Wissen to go.
Jens Voigt
We’ve even had that at the Congress before.
Thorsten Jekel
Brilliant guy, brilliant. So I watch regularly. There are excellent reports on Arte. So when I watch live television, it’s usually Arte and they have great reports. So it’s exciting when I watch. I used to … I always found history … Except for the last two years, when we had a teacher who knew how to tell history in such an exciting way, how to make it so exciting for us that I found it fascinating. And he managed to keep me very interested in history and politics to this day, because he said: “Man, what can we learn from this in terms of I mean, he will always do that. Yesterday I got a few question marks during the election, but one person learns better from it, the other worse. But what I think is great is that, firstly, there are great YouTube channels. Secondly, there’s a tool called “8010. “8ify, i.e. VD8 and then Atify. You can install it as an extension in the Chrome browser and then I have a video that lasts maybe an hour and a half and then I can say: Please give me a summary of the video, and then I can see the summary on the right-hand side next to the video: What are the 20 key ideas?
Thorsten Jekel
And I can even look at it again as a link in a separate browser, save it as a bookmark or, what I always recommend, save it in OneNote or Evernote or Notion, i.e. in a note system, where I can then access it in all my systems afterwards. And when I work in OneNote, for example, AI is now also integrated. This means that if I have questions about it, it naturally includes the information. I find that fascinating. I would have liked to have had this option for myself at school, even when my daughter was at school, but she’s using it, she’s learning Python on the side, for example. She’s already working as a programmer. So she uses it regularly, and so do I. And there are also wonderful, great offers, some of them free of charge on YouTube, which you can also use wonderfully and I would always encourage people to do so. I also think that’s the beauty of Germany. Of course, sometimes there are also educational offers where I have to pay money, especially when I say I don’t want to search for a long time, I want to have it condensed, I want to have the shortcut.
Thorsten Jekel
That’s also part of what I offer, that I say you don’t have to spend weeks on YouTube looking for the best videos, but you get the best off from me in a short space of time, you can simply save time. And if you do have time, in Germany, unlike in the USA for example, education is not a question of money. In other words, there are lots and lots of them. There are adult education centers that have great offers. There are public libraries. You know, do you know OnLia, for example?
Jens Voigt
No, I can’t.
Thorsten Jekel
I used to go to the city library once a week as a child, especially in the fall, winter and spring, because there were always magazines. I loved reading Bild der Wissenschaft, for example, Spektrum der Wissenschaft, in the library as a child. My parents gave me a subscription to Bild der Wissenschaft, which my parents paid for. They said that more than one magazine had to go to the library, it costs a lot of money. And then I got “Spektrum der Wissenschaft” and “PM” and so on, which I read in the library. And with Onlaie, almost all public libraries now offer the opportunity to read books, magazines and daily newspapers online free of charge. For example, I used to subscribe to the Handelsblatt, which cost €45 a month. Now it costs a one-off €50, for example this “Onlaie in Berlin”. And I’ve just renewed my subscription, which costs €20 a year. And for €20 a year I have lots of magazines, just like in the Schwepp library. I have books, I have the Süddeutsche, I have the FAZ, I have Die Zeit. So I have a lot of newspapers where I say, when I look at the European elections, maybe one or two people should pick up a good daily newspaper from time to time, in whatever form.
Thorsten Jekel
And it’s a great way of saying: “Gosh, subscribing to a daily newspaper is expensive or difficult when we travel a lot. Accessible, I have that issue too. But I’m still grateful to my father today. When I was twelve, he said: So, from now on you’ll read the FAZ every day, and I hated him for it because I said: Wow, reading the FAZ at twelve was hardcore. But now I’m a newspaper addict. Somehow I can’t go a day without a newspaper. And when I look at it, and I find it so sad, that younger people in particular are more likely to vote for a party that, in my view, acts against their interests, namely one that denies climate change, in other words to stick to the topic, than to vote for the Greens, who tend to have this in their DNA. I’m worried about that, I have to be honest, because when the old farts, as we say, come after me, the deluge is not an issue at all. But the younger generation has the deluge ahead of them and I think education is all the more important and I think that’s the lever.
Thorsten Jekel
And that’s why I think what you’re doing with your format is so great and so valuable, dear Jens.
Jens Voigt
Yes, and that will continue, and of course we look forward to your contribution. So what, dear people, you have now heard. Thorsten will be making a second contribution, and then he’ll appear directly in the congress hall and then he’ll show you exactly how it works. Exactly. So we just do things like this live and say: Look here, this is how you upload one of these things and this is how you build your GPT. That’s crazy. All the things that are possible these days.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, there is more than meets the eye. Yes, yes, not. And what we always say: do it, we want to be more blatant. So just do it. And I always say that I want to move people from digital know-how to digital do-how. That’s my mission, where I say colorful pictures are nice, I’m also a speaker, but I just think that’s why this dichotomy we have is totally smart. I always think it’s important to have the mindset first, to understand the concepts before you throw yourself into the tools, but to then simply say with the basis: now we’ve understood the idea of the tapped guys. Let me tell you, just looking at me, I’m the tapped guy with the two watches. I have an analog watch, which I already had before, and I have a digital one. I love both worlds and then to say: What’s the idea? What is the concept? What is the purpose of it all? And then at the congress I’ll show you how you can do it in concrete terms and put it into practice. That’s the idea.
Jens Voigt
And we are already looking forward to it.
Thorsten Jekel
Me too I’m looking forward to seeing you. Wonderful.
Jens Voigt
So many, many thanks and best wishes to Berlin.
Thorsten Jekel
Yes, thank you and definitely register for the congress now. What does it look like?
Jens Voigt
Now at the latest. Exactly.
Conclusion:
Thorsten Jekel
I hope you found the interview just as exciting as we did as mediators. We had to end it at some point because we were running out of time and we both had follow-up appointments, so we could have gone on talking for hours. But the good news is that there will soon be a live webinar with Jens Voigt and myself. You will find the relevant links in the show notes, where you can also register free of charge.
With this in mind, have another successful week.
Yours, Thorsten Jekel
Also available in: Deutsch
